Note: This is a user mod, not standard on Lazy Daze
Water pumps and attaining a "good" consistent flow of water are a constant source of discussion. Water pumps, which will be covered in a separate FAQ, provide a flow of water that pulses as the pump turns on and off in response to the water demand. To address the pulsing water flow, a few LD'ers have installed accumulator (expansion) tanks in an effort to smooth out the flow. Here are comments from two:
- I have been having problems with my water heater.... No, it heats water OK, but when it does, I have to keep a close eye on it or the pressure builds up until the relief valve lets go and water runs down the side of the trailer. After reading about using an expansion tank to fix this problem, and pricing the Shur-Flo tank in several RV sources, I found a cheaper answer. I went to a local Home Depot, and for $35 I bought a 2 gallon water heater expansion tank. I found room for the tank behind a drawer under the dinette seat. Add a brass fitting or two, a stainless flex hose and a standard PVC compression tee.
Probably the neatest thing about using an expansion tank is the way your water system works: I pre-charged the tank with 30psi and then turned on the pump. The pump ran for 30 or 40 seconds and filled the tank. Then, you can use the water for a surprisingly long time before the pump runs again. The water pressure is higher and more consistent, and I find that I can flush the toilet several times and wash my hands, etc. before the expansion tank is emptied. And my water heater no longer gives me any problems.
- I did some testing, identified an overpressure condition that was causing my pump to leak, and installed an accumulator tank. That addressed the overpressure condition. Twice since then, my pump has heated up to the point where it cuts off. A period of no power to the pump to allow it to cool down results in its return to normal operation.
I don't KNOW that this is related to the installation of the accumulator tank, but I don't know that it is not. The tank is charged to 80 psi, so the pump should not "see" the tank in the system. Still, it might be related to what I did, so I wanted to make all aware lest you try an accumulator tank and burn out your pump.
Contributors: Mike Richmond, Ken Fears
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Monday, January 31, 2011
Water Fillers
Your Lazy Daze comes with a nice big fresh water tank which lets you spend a number of days off in the boonies enjoying the Great Outdoors. All you have to do is fill it. Here are some tips to make that job a little easier.
- The first trick is to be able to connect to the water source. Not all faucets have a threaded spout onto which you can fasten your hose. Not a problem - all you need is a "water thief". This simple three-dollar rubber gizmo adapts virtually any faucet--round, square, threaded or not--to a garden hose fitting. Every RV should have one tucked away for emergencies. It's basically a somewhat stretchy length of rubber tubing that has a metal male hose thread on one end. You stretch the tubing over the business end of the faucet, then connect your hose to the water thief via the hose threads. Some I've seen have pretty straight-sided tubing, while others are tapered, may have molded-in ridges to grip the faucet, etc. They can slip or work their way off of the faucet if the water pressure is high, the water hose flexes or pulls on the water thief, etc. Carry a 1.5" diameter hose clamp fitted with a thumb screw to help secure the rubber tubing over the end of the faucet.
- The other useful gadget is something that will hold the end of your hose in the water fill opening. There are commercially available items or you can make your own. The problem with the commercial version is that there are holes in the cap around the hose connection which allow back-pressure from the water being forced down the curved fill tube to expel some of the water. Since there is already an air-vent tube beside the water tube that allows air to escape as the tank fills, a solid fill device is better.
-- You can easily make a fill device yourself: buy a regular fill tube with the hose connection and also purchase a replacement cap for the fill inlet. Drill a hole in the center of the fill cap through which the fill tube just fits. Cement the two together. Now you can securely attach your hose to the fill opening. The sound of gurgling or burping will indicate that the tank is just about full.
-- My wife wasn't keen on me making one of copper and soldering it even though I told her the solder was lead free and we have copper pipes in our home. She wanted me to make it from PVC instead even though she knows I no longer like plastic parts since moving to Fl. She used the logic that we use it for outdoor irrigation and it lasted and has UV inhibitors and it wouldn't even be in the sun that much. I think she just doesn't like when I use a torch because it gets her nervous. So to make her happy I bought the 3 pieces I needed to make one from 1/2" PVC tubing that I already had left over for spare tubing from an irrigation system project. I needed the 45° elbow ($.21), a 1/2" PVC to 1/2" FPT adapter ($.29), and the 1/2" MPT to 3/4" brass hose adapter ($2.26). It all cost less than $3. I already had the tubing, PVC cement, and primer. If they had the PVC 1/2" slip to 3/4" FHT hose adapters in stock those were only $1.05 so it would have been even cheaper but they were out of stock and I didn't want to go back just for that. I'd also rather have the brass type hose adapter and really would have rather made the whole thing from copper tubing but this was a compromise. It works great and no more need for a hanger to keep that lousy cheap plastic and vinyl tubing filler from falling out of the potable tank filler. Even if I had to buy the 1/2 tubing and the cement and primer it would've been only about a $6-8 project and a much better way to fill the tank. A piece of 8'x 1/2" tubing costs only about $1-1.50 and a small container of cement is about $1.50, you don't really need to use primer except in pressurized systems but it's cheap also. Making one of PVC is easy even for those that can't solder. Home Depot or any other store will cut the tubing for you free so you don't even need a pipe cutter for it.
- Terry Tanner has made a very effective fill tube from copper tubing and fittings. A thorough description with photos and plans are available on Terry's Techsnoz site.
Trouble-Shooting
When filling the tank, water backs up and comes out the inlet
- The vent outlet, located inside the water fill access door, has a stainless steel screen covering it. It is secured with a rubber washer. Remove the rubber washer and pop the screen out. It may be completely blocked with crud. Scrub it clean with a little detergent and an old toothbrush. Problem solved.
Contributors: Bob, Mike, Larry Wade, WxToad
Revised: 12 Oct 13
Return to FAQ Index
- The first trick is to be able to connect to the water source. Not all faucets have a threaded spout onto which you can fasten your hose. Not a problem - all you need is a "water thief". This simple three-dollar rubber gizmo adapts virtually any faucet--round, square, threaded or not--to a garden hose fitting. Every RV should have one tucked away for emergencies. It's basically a somewhat stretchy length of rubber tubing that has a metal male hose thread on one end. You stretch the tubing over the business end of the faucet, then connect your hose to the water thief via the hose threads. Some I've seen have pretty straight-sided tubing, while others are tapered, may have molded-in ridges to grip the faucet, etc. They can slip or work their way off of the faucet if the water pressure is high, the water hose flexes or pulls on the water thief, etc. Carry a 1.5" diameter hose clamp fitted with a thumb screw to help secure the rubber tubing over the end of the faucet. - The other useful gadget is something that will hold the end of your hose in the water fill opening. There are commercially available items or you can make your own. The problem with the commercial version is that there are holes in the cap around the hose connection which allow back-pressure from the water being forced down the curved fill tube to expel some of the water. Since there is already an air-vent tube beside the water tube that allows air to escape as the tank fills, a solid fill device is better.
-- You can easily make a fill device yourself: buy a regular fill tube with the hose connection and also purchase a replacement cap for the fill inlet. Drill a hole in the center of the fill cap through which the fill tube just fits. Cement the two together. Now you can securely attach your hose to the fill opening. The sound of gurgling or burping will indicate that the tank is just about full.-- My wife wasn't keen on me making one of copper and soldering it even though I told her the solder was lead free and we have copper pipes in our home. She wanted me to make it from PVC instead even though she knows I no longer like plastic parts since moving to Fl. She used the logic that we use it for outdoor irrigation and it lasted and has UV inhibitors and it wouldn't even be in the sun that much. I think she just doesn't like when I use a torch because it gets her nervous. So to make her happy I bought the 3 pieces I needed to make one from 1/2" PVC tubing that I already had left over for spare tubing from an irrigation system project. I needed the 45° elbow ($.21), a 1/2" PVC to 1/2" FPT adapter ($.29), and the 1/2" MPT to 3/4" brass hose adapter ($2.26). It all cost less than $3. I already had the tubing, PVC cement, and primer. If they had the PVC 1/2" slip to 3/4" FHT hose adapters in stock those were only $1.05 so it would have been even cheaper but they were out of stock and I didn't want to go back just for that. I'd also rather have the brass type hose adapter and really would have rather made the whole thing from copper tubing but this was a compromise. It works great and no more need for a hanger to keep that lousy cheap plastic and vinyl tubing filler from falling out of the potable tank filler. Even if I had to buy the 1/2 tubing and the cement and primer it would've been only about a $6-8 project and a much better way to fill the tank. A piece of 8'x 1/2" tubing costs only about $1-1.50 and a small container of cement is about $1.50, you don't really need to use primer except in pressurized systems but it's cheap also. Making one of PVC is easy even for those that can't solder. Home Depot or any other store will cut the tubing for you free so you don't even need a pipe cutter for it.
- Terry Tanner has made a very effective fill tube from copper tubing and fittings. A thorough description with photos and plans are available on Terry's Techsnoz site.
Trouble-Shooting
When filling the tank, water backs up and comes out the inlet
- The vent outlet, located inside the water fill access door, has a stainless steel screen covering it. It is secured with a rubber washer. Remove the rubber washer and pop the screen out. It may be completely blocked with crud. Scrub it clean with a little detergent and an old toothbrush. Problem solved.
Contributors: Bob, Mike, Larry Wade, WxToad
Revised: 12 Oct 13
Return to FAQ Index
Outside Shower
An outside shower is an option offered by Lazy Daze. It can be a very convenient feature, especially if you travel with dogs or children who both tend to come back to the LD with dirty feet. You say you don't have one, but you'd like one?
Install an Outside Shower
The factory mounts the exterior shower in a place where the plumbing can be easily installed. Unfortunately on the 23.5' FL (and many other models) it's on the driver's side of the MH, opposite of where you really need it. On the FL's, there is a storage compartment just forward of the side door. This is a good place for a water nozzle to be located.
We have an 8'x10' piece of indoor/outdoor carpeting that we position outside the door. We can stand on the carpet and wash our feet off, letting the dirt and water drain through the carpet. We then step over onto the door mat and then up into the coach. If further cleanup is necessary, the interior shower is just around the corner.
I would think a setup like this would take care of most owners' needs. A cold water rinse prevents excessive use just because it is cold. If you need a hot shower, use the shower. The nozzle just allows you to clean your own or dogs feet, preventing getting the floor dirty. The nozzle is also handy for rinsing fishing gear and just about anything else that needs a quick cleanup.
Larry Wade
Trouble-Shooting
Return to FAQ Index
Install an Outside Shower
The factory mounts the exterior shower in a place where the plumbing can be easily installed. Unfortunately on the 23.5' FL (and many other models) it's on the driver's side of the MH, opposite of where you really need it. On the FL's, there is a storage compartment just forward of the side door. This is a good place for a water nozzle to be located.
We have an 8'x10' piece of indoor/outdoor carpeting that we position outside the door. We can stand on the carpet and wash our feet off, letting the dirt and water drain through the carpet. We then step over onto the door mat and then up into the coach. If further cleanup is necessary, the interior shower is just around the corner.
The water pump just happens to be in the same area. I added a tee into the output side of the pump hose and then ran a water line (with an inline valve inside the coach) down into the storage compartment. Another valve and then a quick disconnect fitting are added (an airline disconnect from Home Depot). Next, the spray nozzle and hose are added (a kitchen sink sprayer, again, from Home Depot).
The interior valve is for the wintertime. I do not want water in the storage compartment line during freezing weather. The valve inside the storage compartment is for pressurizing the nozzle. You do not want it accidentally activated. We leave it turned off except when parked and it is in use (yes, I did flood the storage compartment once).
Larry Wade
Trouble-Shooting
Outside shower leaks when turned off:
After a little more investigation I found a little black flapper valve. It did not appear bad - it may have just gotten misaligned. I got it out and put it back the way I thought it should go and it worked, no spray from the vent hole and I could hear it draw air in as the hose drained. The flapper valve is under white plastic washer with a tab on it and the hole which allows the water to flow to the shower. I used a small wire hook inserted into the hole to remove the washer then turned on the water which pushed out the flapper valve. I had to use a small mirror to install and align the flapper valve. Then I re-assembled it and it worked. Jim
Contributors: Larry Wade, JimReturn to FAQ Index
Water Filters
RV water filters and purifiers are something that you should definitely consider before heading off to explore the great outdoors in your RV. A lot of people like to use their own RV water filtration systems even if the campsites they stay at have faucets and water supplies available.
Faucets at campsites usually run to an underground reservoir but the water might not be completely safe. Drinking untreated water means that you risk viruses like Hepatitis A, bacteria like E coli and more.
Some water purifiers use chemicals like chlorine or iodine but most work mechanically. A purifier uses different filtration technologies to make drinking water safe. A purifier is usually better than a filter because it can reduce chemical contaminants, tastes and odors, particulates, sediment, bacteria, viruses and more.
Drinking water filters have been standard equipment on many new motorhomes for years. Even if your RV didn’t come with one, it can be added very simply. The usual location is a small additional faucet placed alongside the kitchen sink. With plenty of space in the cabinet under the sink, changing filter elements is quick and simple.
Another option is an external water filter system. Designed to be used in-line with the water hose that is supplying city water to your recreational vehicle, these in-line filters will treat all the water coming into your RV. In-line filters come in two styles: a simple filter that screws into your hose system and a canister system.
If you want better flow, longer life, and the most versatility in customizing your system, you can install a standard-size canister system. Systems can be configured with a single canister, two canisters in series, or even three canisters for specialty purposes. Since the canisters are a standard size, there is a wide variety of filter cartridges available for them. If you go with a dual-canister system, each canister can contain a cartridge dedicated to a specific task. The first canister should contain a sediment cartridge and the second canister a carbon cartridge. A good combination for most people is a 1-micron disposable sediment cartridge (RV-SED1) paired with a solid-block carbon taste/odor cartridge (CBC-10).
If you want to add an additional function to your system, this is best accomplished by adding a third canister. The first two would contain the same cartridges as a dual-canister system, and the third canister would house the specialty cartridge, such as a Birm or phosphate cartridge. If sediment problems are extreme, triple-canister systems could utilize two sediment cartridges, for example a 5 micron first, followed by a 1 micron and finally a carbon cartridge.
Water filters will remove sediment, and in most cases, improve the taste of the water in your RV. It is unlikely that these filters will do much to improve hard water. To improve hard water you need to use a water softener. Here again, they are installed inline with your incoming water supply. A simple garden hose fitting makes this a matter of a minute or so while you're setting up camp, though a more costly option at about $250. Take a serious look at the benefits.
Filter Methods
- Activated carbon infused with silver - They release metal ions into the water to stop bacteria growing inside.
- Reverse osmosis - water is forced against a semi-permeable cellulose acetate membrane by the water pressure. This separates the water from any contaminants because the water goes through the membrane. Bacteria can build up on the membrane causing a blocked flow so RV reverse osmosis is not recommended for severely contaminated water. A reverse osmosis unit small enough to fit in an RV will only produce a couple of gallons in twelve hours and you cannot use the unit while driving. You will need an additional storage medium. If you are thinking about an RV reverse osmosis unit, check that it is registered as a purifier as well as a filter. RO water filtration does remove large molecules, dirt, sediment and other contaminants. Some RO systems for RV water filtration come with carbon filters, meaning that even more dirty particles can be removed from the water supply.
- Ultraviolet light - These water filtration systems use ultraviolet light to kill bacteria. An UV lamp is effective on microbes but does not remove sediment or dirt. Also, any dirt or sediment can pass into the UV chamber and hide the bacteria from the light, so you will need to use a good filter for taste and odor reduction as well as reducing chlorine, dirt and sediment before using a UV filter. UV filters do need electrical power but they are cheap enough to run.
Buying
- Sediment filters are a LOT cheaper at Home Depot or Lowes than Camping World.
- The Seagull IV filter sits under the sink in the back corner. It takes up a little room but is well worth it! All the hardware needed to install it comes with the filter. If you don't want a mounted filter they also carry portable units at General Ecology. Prices start at $533 list and range up to just over $1000.
- Looking for a filter with a counter-top faucet that has similar filtering characteristics to the Seagull IV, at a lower price? A few possibilities are:
-- Flow-PUR Interior Filter from Camping World for $110.
-- Omnipure Q-Series and 3M RV/Marine filter systems start at $100.
-- PurestOne is available for $250.
-- Multi-Pure markets several systems starting at $400.
Installing an under-counter filter
- Here is a great tutorial on how to install an under-counter filter with a sink-top dispenser.
- You don't need to drill through the counter top next to the sink to install a drinking water faucet. The pullout faucet LD uses only uses the large center hole of the sink. They use the base plate faucet mfgs supply to cover the other 2 side holes. If you remove the faucet and the base plate you'll see the other two 1" holes in the sink but the counter under them will not be drilled through. You can drill them through with a hole saw or drill bit without the possibility of the fiberglass counter chipping or cracking and then install a soap dispenser and your drinking water faucet in them and reinstall the pull-out without the base plate using just the single hole mounting method. This makes a much more professional looking setup that will look as if it came that way from the factory instead of being an aftermarket add-on. The hole for the filter faucet needs to be 3/4" minimum but you can use a 1" hole.
Contributors: Mike O, Larry Wade, Malcolm, WxToad
Return to FAQ Index
Faucets at campsites usually run to an underground reservoir but the water might not be completely safe. Drinking untreated water means that you risk viruses like Hepatitis A, bacteria like E coli and more.
Some water purifiers use chemicals like chlorine or iodine but most work mechanically. A purifier uses different filtration technologies to make drinking water safe. A purifier is usually better than a filter because it can reduce chemical contaminants, tastes and odors, particulates, sediment, bacteria, viruses and more.
Drinking water filters have been standard equipment on many new motorhomes for years. Even if your RV didn’t come with one, it can be added very simply. The usual location is a small additional faucet placed alongside the kitchen sink. With plenty of space in the cabinet under the sink, changing filter elements is quick and simple.
Another option is an external water filter system. Designed to be used in-line with the water hose that is supplying city water to your recreational vehicle, these in-line filters will treat all the water coming into your RV. In-line filters come in two styles: a simple filter that screws into your hose system and a canister system.
If you want better flow, longer life, and the most versatility in customizing your system, you can install a standard-size canister system. Systems can be configured with a single canister, two canisters in series, or even three canisters for specialty purposes. Since the canisters are a standard size, there is a wide variety of filter cartridges available for them. If you go with a dual-canister system, each canister can contain a cartridge dedicated to a specific task. The first canister should contain a sediment cartridge and the second canister a carbon cartridge. A good combination for most people is a 1-micron disposable sediment cartridge (RV-SED1) paired with a solid-block carbon taste/odor cartridge (CBC-10).
If you want to add an additional function to your system, this is best accomplished by adding a third canister. The first two would contain the same cartridges as a dual-canister system, and the third canister would house the specialty cartridge, such as a Birm or phosphate cartridge. If sediment problems are extreme, triple-canister systems could utilize two sediment cartridges, for example a 5 micron first, followed by a 1 micron and finally a carbon cartridge.
Water filters will remove sediment, and in most cases, improve the taste of the water in your RV. It is unlikely that these filters will do much to improve hard water. To improve hard water you need to use a water softener. Here again, they are installed inline with your incoming water supply. A simple garden hose fitting makes this a matter of a minute or so while you're setting up camp, though a more costly option at about $250. Take a serious look at the benefits.
Filter Methods
- Activated carbon infused with silver - They release metal ions into the water to stop bacteria growing inside.
- Reverse osmosis - water is forced against a semi-permeable cellulose acetate membrane by the water pressure. This separates the water from any contaminants because the water goes through the membrane. Bacteria can build up on the membrane causing a blocked flow so RV reverse osmosis is not recommended for severely contaminated water. A reverse osmosis unit small enough to fit in an RV will only produce a couple of gallons in twelve hours and you cannot use the unit while driving. You will need an additional storage medium. If you are thinking about an RV reverse osmosis unit, check that it is registered as a purifier as well as a filter. RO water filtration does remove large molecules, dirt, sediment and other contaminants. Some RO systems for RV water filtration come with carbon filters, meaning that even more dirty particles can be removed from the water supply.
- Ultraviolet light - These water filtration systems use ultraviolet light to kill bacteria. An UV lamp is effective on microbes but does not remove sediment or dirt. Also, any dirt or sediment can pass into the UV chamber and hide the bacteria from the light, so you will need to use a good filter for taste and odor reduction as well as reducing chlorine, dirt and sediment before using a UV filter. UV filters do need electrical power but they are cheap enough to run.
Buying
- Sediment filters are a LOT cheaper at Home Depot or Lowes than Camping World.
- The Seagull IV filter sits under the sink in the back corner. It takes up a little room but is well worth it! All the hardware needed to install it comes with the filter. If you don't want a mounted filter they also carry portable units at General Ecology. Prices start at $533 list and range up to just over $1000.
- Looking for a filter with a counter-top faucet that has similar filtering characteristics to the Seagull IV, at a lower price? A few possibilities are:
-- Flow-PUR Interior Filter from Camping World for $110.
-- Omnipure Q-Series and 3M RV/Marine filter systems start at $100.
-- PurestOne is available for $250.
-- Multi-Pure markets several systems starting at $400.
Installing an under-counter filter
- Here is a great tutorial on how to install an under-counter filter with a sink-top dispenser.
- You don't need to drill through the counter top next to the sink to install a drinking water faucet. The pullout faucet LD uses only uses the large center hole of the sink. They use the base plate faucet mfgs supply to cover the other 2 side holes. If you remove the faucet and the base plate you'll see the other two 1" holes in the sink but the counter under them will not be drilled through. You can drill them through with a hole saw or drill bit without the possibility of the fiberglass counter chipping or cracking and then install a soap dispenser and your drinking water faucet in them and reinstall the pull-out without the base plate using just the single hole mounting method. This makes a much more professional looking setup that will look as if it came that way from the factory instead of being an aftermarket add-on. The hole for the filter faucet needs to be 3/4" minimum but you can use a 1" hole.
Contributors: Mike O, Larry Wade, Malcolm, WxToad
Return to FAQ Index
Sanitizing Fresh Water Tank
From a health and safety point of view, it is advisable to periodically drain and sanitize your fresh water tank, especially if the rig sits idle a fair amount of time. If you won't be using the LD for an extended period, it is wise to drain the fresh water tank and the hot water heater. You should also tend to your hot water heater, per the guidance in the Water Heater Draining, Flushing, Sanitizing FAQ.
Some Tips to avoid contamination
Using a funnel, put in about 1/3 cup (some use less) of Clorox into the tank for every 20 gallons or so of water, then drive a little to slosh it around. Run several gallons of hot water to get the mixture into the hot water tank. Run enough hot and cold water from every fixture (sinks, shower, toilet flush) to get the mixture into every line. Then, let things sit for about 10 minutes to allow the contact time for effective sanitation. Drain, refill with fresh water, drive around a little more, flush all lines and drain again. Refill the tank. If any Clorox smell or taste is still present, add about a cup of white vinegar and do the "drive and slosh" thing again. Finally drain and fill with fresh water. [When KoKo has been in storage for over a month, we use the above procedure and we run the clorinated water through all the water lines. Once the tank has all fresh water in it, we run water through the lines to clear the clorinated water]
Keeping it Fresh:
We add a capful of Purogene [Chlorine dioxide] each time we fill KoKo's tank. It's tasteless and keeps the water fresh.
Contributors: JC Taylor, WxToad
Return to FAQ Index
Some Tips to avoid contamination
- Use a "drinking water safe" hose designed for RV/Marine use; garden hoses can leach chemicals.
- Use -- at the least -- a sediment filter. Tiny bits of sediment, rust flakes, etc., that might get into the fresh water tank can damage the water pump and other elements of the system.
- Some folks recommend using water from the tank all the time, even you have a city water connection. This prevents the water in the tank from sitting for long periods.
Using a funnel, put in about 1/3 cup (some use less) of Clorox into the tank for every 20 gallons or so of water, then drive a little to slosh it around. Run several gallons of hot water to get the mixture into the hot water tank. Run enough hot and cold water from every fixture (sinks, shower, toilet flush) to get the mixture into every line. Then, let things sit for about 10 minutes to allow the contact time for effective sanitation. Drain, refill with fresh water, drive around a little more, flush all lines and drain again. Refill the tank. If any Clorox smell or taste is still present, add about a cup of white vinegar and do the "drive and slosh" thing again. Finally drain and fill with fresh water. [When KoKo has been in storage for over a month, we use the above procedure and we run the clorinated water through all the water lines. Once the tank has all fresh water in it, we run water through the lines to clear the clorinated water]
Keeping it Fresh:
We add a capful of Purogene [Chlorine dioxide] each time we fill KoKo's tank. It's tasteless and keeps the water fresh.
Contributors: JC Taylor, WxToad
Return to FAQ Index
Sunday, January 30, 2011
What's the Difference - Converters/Inverters
Manufacturers install 12 volt only components, such as lights, and use converters and inverters to power them. If you are connected to shore power or using your generator, the converter is supplying 12 volts to your lights. Otherwise, your inverter is supplying 12 volts to your lights from your house batteries.
Your converter is really a simple device that takes 110 volt AC and turns it into 12 volt DC. They allow you to use your 12 volt appliances, fans, pumps and camper lights while you are plugged in to 110.
Most RV power converters are equipped with a battery charger to keep the RV's battery charged when connected to a 110 power source. These chargers are usually trickle chargers with a charge rate of less than 10 amps.
Inverters work the exact opposite. They change the DC power of the house batteries to AC current. Some RVs have inverters to provide AC power at times when shoreline power is not available, or when generator use is not advised. Inverters are rated in watts, from 35 to 3000 watts.
RV Power inverters are nice to have for dry camping. Generators require fuel, regular maintenance and can be very noisy. We usually dry camp to avoid noise. Inverters are quiet - not even a hum, and are virtually maintenance free!
A power inverter relies on good RV deep cycle batteries to work properly. They work well for low power appliances such as televisions, radios, computers, and for short term use of appliances such as coffee makers or microwaves.
Your converter is really a simple device that takes 110 volt AC and turns it into 12 volt DC. They allow you to use your 12 volt appliances, fans, pumps and camper lights while you are plugged in to 110.
Most RV power converters are equipped with a battery charger to keep the RV's battery charged when connected to a 110 power source. These chargers are usually trickle chargers with a charge rate of less than 10 amps.
Inverters work the exact opposite. They change the DC power of the house batteries to AC current. Some RVs have inverters to provide AC power at times when shoreline power is not available, or when generator use is not advised. Inverters are rated in watts, from 35 to 3000 watts.
RV Power inverters are nice to have for dry camping. Generators require fuel, regular maintenance and can be very noisy. We usually dry camp to avoid noise. Inverters are quiet - not even a hum, and are virtually maintenance free!
A power inverter relies on good RV deep cycle batteries to work properly. They work well for low power appliances such as televisions, radios, computers, and for short term use of appliances such as coffee makers or microwaves.
What's the Difference - Converters/Inverters
Manufacturers install 12 volt only components, such as lights, and use converters and inverters to power them. If you are connected to shore power or using your generator, the converter is supplying 12 volts to your lights. Otherwise, your inverter is supplying 12 volts to your lights from your house batteries.
Your converter is really a simple device that takes 110 volt AC and turns it into 12 volt DC. They allow you to use your 12 volt appliances, fans, pumps and camper lights while you are plugged in to 110.
Most RV power converters are equipped with a battery charger to keep the RV's battery charged when connected to a 110 power source. These chargers are usually trickle chargers with a charge rate of less than 10 amps.
Inverters work the exact opposite. They change the DC power of the house batteries to AC current. Some RVs have inverters to provide AC power at times when shoreline power is not available, or when generator use is not advised. Inverters are rated in watts, from 35 to 3000 watts.
RV Power inverters are nice to have for dry camping. Generators require fuel, regular maintenance and can be very noisy. We usually dry camp to avoid noise. Inverters are quiet - not even a hum, and are virtually maintenance free!
A power inverter relies on good RV deep cycle batteries to work properly. They work well for low power appliances such as televisions, radios, computers, and for short term use of appliances such as coffee makers or microwaves.
Your converter is really a simple device that takes 110 volt AC and turns it into 12 volt DC. They allow you to use your 12 volt appliances, fans, pumps and camper lights while you are plugged in to 110.
Most RV power converters are equipped with a battery charger to keep the RV's battery charged when connected to a 110 power source. These chargers are usually trickle chargers with a charge rate of less than 10 amps.
Inverters work the exact opposite. They change the DC power of the house batteries to AC current. Some RVs have inverters to provide AC power at times when shoreline power is not available, or when generator use is not advised. Inverters are rated in watts, from 35 to 3000 watts.
RV Power inverters are nice to have for dry camping. Generators require fuel, regular maintenance and can be very noisy. We usually dry camp to avoid noise. Inverters are quiet - not even a hum, and are virtually maintenance free!
A power inverter relies on good RV deep cycle batteries to work properly. They work well for low power appliances such as televisions, radios, computers, and for short term use of appliances such as coffee makers or microwaves.
Saturday, January 29, 2011
Coach Steps
The manual step has a simple flip-out mechanism - you merely lift up the front edge of the step and pull it out. You can even do it with your foot. The only maintenance required is a monthly lubricating of the pivot points of the mechanism.
Routine Maintenance
Power Step: The power plug is subject to corrosion and should be treated with dielectric grease.
Things that can cause problems:
- Dirty master electrical plug, mounted up under the step where mud and water can get into it. Clean contacts and butter contacts with dielectric grease.
- Motor is locked up due to dust and dirt. Replace or disassemble and clean.
- Bad magnetic reed switch in door frame. Replace reed switch- available from Radio Shack and other outlets. A difficult fix since LD did not leave much excess wire.
- To retract step with a faulty reed switch, you can cut the motor wires and then, using a portable battery jumper, power the step back in. Kwikee does not include a manual retraction system.
-The gearbox is not sealed and can allow the buildup of large amounts of dirt, jamming the mechanism.
-Bent frame and arms, caused by impacts. Straighten or replace bent parts.
The motor mechanism makes a grinding noise
The electric step is locked in the deployed (down) position
- The owner's manual, for the Kwikee electric step, has a decent trouble-shooting guide that will walk you through the testing routine. It requires a volt-ohm meter.
- A couple of things to check: If you remove the screws securing the wall-mounted on/off switch, you will find a fuse mounted inside the wall. Check the fuse. Check the LD owner's manual for the location of the ignition override fuse (it's in the vans fuse panel) and the main power fuse (usually mounted inside the battery compartment). The locations will vary from model to model and year to year. Under the step, there is a wire bundle and plug that provides power to the control box and also the wires coming from the ignition switch and magnetic reed switch in the door. Separate the plug and make sure the contacts are clean. If you hear a noise when the door is opened and closed, the magnetic reed switch should be OK. Be happy, it is difficult to change due to the very short wires LD provided.
If none of this fixes things, you can remove the step's electric motor and force the step in. The step will need to be tied into position with rope or wire until repairs can be made.
- Remove the1/4 inch pin that attaches the motor drive to the step mechanism. The pin is located in the center of step towards the front of the drive link that comes from the motor and it has a carter key to keep it in place. If you can get to it with the step extended, removal should allow the step to be retracted and you can rope or wire it in until you figure out what the main issue is. Check to see if the carter key is jammed on an adjacent frame support which is really close in the retracted position.
Step "clunks" for 5 seconds when retracting
If you get under your LD, off to one side of the step, you might be able to see what has broken while having someone operate the step. Caution: Keep your fingers out of the way; the mechanism is powerful enough to do some serious damage.
Not getting 12v power to the step controller (motor)
- If you remove the screws securing the wall-mounted on/off switch, you will find a fuse mounted inside the wall. Check the fuse. Check the LD owner's manual for the location of the ignition override fuse (it's in the van's fuse panel) and the main power fuse (usually mounted inside the battery compartment). The locations will vary from model to model and year to year. Once you verify that the fuse is there, consider using a Casio labeler to make a label saying "5A Fuse behind switch," and apply it to the switch itself.
Kwikee's website is loaded with manuals to aid in troubleshooting. You will need your step's model number to find the correct literature.
Manual step is bent
- When the step is behind the rear wheels, it's fairly easy to catch it on a curb and bend it backwards. Depending on how badly bent it is, the step may be either difficult to move or even fail to support your weight. Here's a method to bend it back into its proper position. Find a short length of 2x4, 4x4, or similar - two to four feet is good. Now go to a parking lot and back in toward the curb, stopping when the back of the rear step is a a few inches further away from the curbing than the length of your wood. Put one end of the wood against the curb and prop up the other end of the stick so that it will be against the back (left) side of the step frame. Gently back up, so that the braced stick will force the step frame forward. Go slowly and only a very short distance, then check the step. If you bend it too far to the right, it will be more difficult to bend it rearward. If you're out in the boonies, you can use a stump or embedded rock to brace the wood.
- The step can be adjusted at the top where it is mounted. By moving the bolts farther apart to the outside position, the step was no longer squashed and can now move freely, as it was designed.
Revised 19 Aug 11
Coach Steps
The manual step has a simple flip-out mechanism - you merely lift up the front edge of the step and pull it out. You can even do it with your foot. The only maintenance required is a monthly lubricating of the pivot points of the mechanism.
Routine Maintenance
Power Step: The power plug is subject to corrosion and should be treated with dielectric grease.
Things that can cause problems:
- Dirty master electrical plug, mounted up under the step where mud and water can get into it. Clean contacts and butter contacts with dielectric grease.
- Motor is locked up due to dust and dirt. Replace or disassemble and clean.
- Bad magnetic reed switch in door frame. Replace reed switch- available from Radio Shack and other outlets. A difficult fix since LD did not leave much excess wire.
- To retract step with a faulty reed switch, you can cut the motor wires and then, using a portable battery jumper, power the step back in. Kwikee does not include a manual retraction system.
-The gearbox is not sealed and can allow the buildup of large amounts of dirt, jamming the mechanism.
-Bent frame and arms, caused by impacts. Straighten or replace bent parts.
The motor mechanism makes a grinding noise
The electric step is locked in the deployed (down) position
- The owner's manual, for the Kwikee electric step, has a decent trouble-shooting guide that will walk you through the testing routine. It requires a volt-ohm meter.
- A couple of things to check: If you remove the screws securing the wall-mounted on/off switch, you will find a fuse mounted inside the wall. Check the fuse. Check the LD owner's manual for the location of the ignition override fuse (it's in the vans fuse panel) and the main power fuse (usually mounted inside the battery compartment). The locations will vary from model to model and year to year. Under the step, there is a wire bundle and plug that provides power to the control box and also the wires coming from the ignition switch and magnetic reed switch in the door. Separate the plug and make sure the contacts are clean. If you hear a noise when the door is opened and closed, the magnetic reed switch should be OK. Be happy, it is difficult to change due to the very short wires LD provided.
If none of this fixes things, you can remove the step's electric motor and force the step in. The step will need to be tied into position with rope or wire until repairs can be made.
- Remove the1/4 inch pin that attaches the motor drive to the step mechanism. The pin is located in the center of step towards the front of the drive link that comes from the motor and it has a carter key to keep it in place. If you can get to it with the step extended, removal should allow the step to be retracted and you can rope or wire it in until you figure out what the main issue is. Check to see if the carter key is jammed on an adjacent frame support which is really close in the retracted position.
Step "clunks" for 5 seconds when retracting
If you get under your LD, off to one side of the step, you might be able to see what has broken while having someone operate the step. Caution: Keep your fingers out of the way; the mechanism is powerful enough to do some serious damage.
Not getting 12v power to the step controller (motor)
- If you remove the screws securing the wall-mounted on/off switch, you will find a fuse mounted inside the wall. Check the fuse. Check the LD owner's manual for the location of the ignition override fuse (it's in the van's fuse panel) and the main power fuse (usually mounted inside the battery compartment). The locations will vary from model to model and year to year. Once you verify that the fuse is there, consider using a Casio labeler to make a label saying "5A Fuse behind switch," and apply it to the switch itself.
Kwikee's website is loaded with manuals to aid in troubleshooting. You will need your step's model number to find the correct literature.
Manual step is bent
- When the step is behind the rear wheels, it's fairly easy to catch it on a curb and bend it backwards. Depending on how badly bent it is, the step may be either difficult to move or even fail to support your weight. Here's a method to bend it back into its proper position. Find a short length of 2x4, 4x4, or similar - two to four feet is good. Now go to a parking lot and back in toward the curb, stopping when the back of the rear step is a a few inches further away from the curbing than the length of your wood. Put one end of the wood against the curb and prop up the other end of the stick so that it will be against the back (left) side of the step frame. Gently back up, so that the braced stick will force the step frame forward. Go slowly and only a very short distance, then check the step. If you bend it too far to the right, it will be more difficult to bend it rearward. If you're out in the boonies, you can use a stump or embedded rock to brace the wood.
- The step can be adjusted at the top where it is mounted. By moving the bolts farther apart to the outside position, the step was no longer squashed and can now move freely, as it was designed.
Revised 19 Aug 11
Coach Battery Overview
The heart of your coach's 12-volt DC system is the two Trojan T-105 6-volt batteries that Lazy Daze installs in every vehicle. These batteries are what give you the freedom to head off into the boondocks and still enjoy almost all the comforts of home far from the grid. Trojans will generally last 5-7 years, and some basic care and careful use of the batteries can greatly extend their life. Those who have high power needs and/or boondock for lengthy periods often replace the Trojans with AGM batteries, which provide much more capacity.
The three basic battery types
Flooded lead-acid
The Lead Acid (wet cell) battery is made up of plates, lead, and lead oxide (various other elements are used to change density, hardness, porosity, etc.) with a 35% sulfuric acid and 65% water solution. This solution is called electrolyte, which causes a chemical reaction that produce electrons. When you test a battery with a hydrometer, you are measuring the amount of sulfuric acid in the electrolyte. If your reading is low, that means the chemistry that makes electrons is lacking. So where did the sulfur go? It is resting on the battery plates and when you recharge the battery, the sulfur returns to the electrolyte.
The Trojan batteries are of this type. Flooded batteries are by far the most common type of vehicle and marine battery. There are two basic types of these batteries: deep-cycle or marine type, such as the Trojans, and starting batteries as in up front under the hood. Starting batteries provide a strong burst of power for starting the engine, but do not take well to being deeply discharged.
Trojan manufactures three batteries - the T-105 with a 225 amp-hour capacity, the T-125 with a 240 amp-hour capacity and the T-145 with 260 amp-hours. The T-145 costs almost twice as much as the T-105. That's why some LD'ers have added addtional banks of T-105 batteries. For almost the same money, four T-105's will provide nearly double the capacity of two T-145's.
AGM
The Absorbed Glass Matt construction allows the electrolyte to be suspended in close proximity with the plates' active material. In theory, this enhances both the discharge and recharge efficiency. Common manufacturer applications include high performance engine starting, power sports, deep cycle, solar and storage batteries. The larger AGM batteries are typically good deep cycle batteries and they deliver their best life performance if recharged before they drop below the 50% discharge rate. When Deep Cycle AGM batteries are discharged to a rate of no less than 60% the cycle life will be 300 plus cycles.
Other than charging, these are truly no-maintenance batteries. A great advantage of AGM's is that they do not vent any gases and thus can be safely installed anywhere. AGM's are much more expensive than wet-cell batteries.
Gel
The Gel Cell is similar to the AGM style because the electrolyte is suspended, but different because technically the AGM battery is still considered to be a wet cell. The electrolyte in a Gel Cell has a silica additive that causes it to set up or stiffen. The recharge voltage on this type of cell is lower than the other styles of lead acid battery. This is probably the most sensitive cell in terms of adverse reactions to over-voltage charging. Gel Batteries are best used in VERY DEEP cycle application and may last a bit longer in hot weather applications.
Discharge of batteries
It is generally considered "not good" to discharge your wet-cell batteries more than 50% of their capacity. Doing so on a regular basis will greatly reduce the longevity of the batteries. So how do you know when you've used up half your amps? The simplest method is note the voltage of the batteries when there is no load on them.
Greg Holder from AM Solar gave these numbers at Life On Wheels in Moscow, ID: Flooded batteries (i.e. the Trojan battery almost all of us have) at 70 or 80 degrees will have the following charge vs. voltage relationship:
Rest Volts / State of Charge / Specific Gravity
12.65 / 100% / 1.265
12.47 / 75% / 1.225
12.34 / 50% / 1.190
12.24 / 25% / 1.120
11.89 / 0% / 1.120
Greg pointed out that "crudely" rounding to 0.1 volts, 12.6 is fully charged, 12.5 is 75% and 12.4 is 50%. If you want your batteries to last for any length of time, do not discharge them below 50% of capacity. I do not have a good reference at hand but you can discharge a battery to 25% for something like 50 or 75 times before its worn out. You can discharge a battery to 50% of capacity for several hundred times and to 75% for 1000 or 1500 times. Deep discharge will sharply shorten life. Generally speaking, the difference between regularly discharging a lead-acid battery 10% and regularly discharging it 90% is a tenfold reduction in battery lifespan.
Again, this is RESTING voltage, hours after a charge, and with NO LOAD. And in reality, this is only slightly more accurate than the idiot lights on the LD Systems Status panel.
A much better method of monitoring your batteries is to install a battery monitor, which is a digital meter/computer that reports voltage, amp flow into and out of battery, amp hours remaining and operating time left. Here are two manufacturers:
Xantrex LinkLite and LinkPro
TriMetric
Charging batteries
OK - so now you have an idea of the state of your batteries. How can you charge them?
- If you access to an electric hookup, plug in and let your converter/charger take over. See the Converter/Charger FAQ for ways to improve charging.
- Run your generator to charge them.
- If you don't have a generator, start the engine and let the alternator recharge them.
- Install solar panels for recharging the batteries.
- When in storage, if you have an outlet nearby, you can hook up a battery charger on a timer (using the timer to prevent over-charging).
Buying Batteries
- Example: Consider a battery with "I26" stamped on the positive terminal and "J2" on the negative. "I26" means that the battery was assembled, without electrolyte, on September 26th. "J2" means that it was shipped from the factory around October of 2002.
Other Resources
Trojan Batteries Users Guide
Mark Nemeth's Battery Facts
phred Tinseth's BATTERIES--AND OTHER ELECTRIC STUFF
Contributors: Gus Weber, Larry Wade, Linley Gumm, bumper, Andy Baird, WxToad
Return to FAQ Index
The three basic battery types
Flooded lead-acid
The Lead Acid (wet cell) battery is made up of plates, lead, and lead oxide (various other elements are used to change density, hardness, porosity, etc.) with a 35% sulfuric acid and 65% water solution. This solution is called electrolyte, which causes a chemical reaction that produce electrons. When you test a battery with a hydrometer, you are measuring the amount of sulfuric acid in the electrolyte. If your reading is low, that means the chemistry that makes electrons is lacking. So where did the sulfur go? It is resting on the battery plates and when you recharge the battery, the sulfur returns to the electrolyte.
The Trojan batteries are of this type. Flooded batteries are by far the most common type of vehicle and marine battery. There are two basic types of these batteries: deep-cycle or marine type, such as the Trojans, and starting batteries as in up front under the hood. Starting batteries provide a strong burst of power for starting the engine, but do not take well to being deeply discharged.
Trojan manufactures three batteries - the T-105 with a 225 amp-hour capacity, the T-125 with a 240 amp-hour capacity and the T-145 with 260 amp-hours. The T-145 costs almost twice as much as the T-105. That's why some LD'ers have added addtional banks of T-105 batteries. For almost the same money, four T-105's will provide nearly double the capacity of two T-145's.
AGM
The Absorbed Glass Matt construction allows the electrolyte to be suspended in close proximity with the plates' active material. In theory, this enhances both the discharge and recharge efficiency. Common manufacturer applications include high performance engine starting, power sports, deep cycle, solar and storage batteries. The larger AGM batteries are typically good deep cycle batteries and they deliver their best life performance if recharged before they drop below the 50% discharge rate. When Deep Cycle AGM batteries are discharged to a rate of no less than 60% the cycle life will be 300 plus cycles.
Other than charging, these are truly no-maintenance batteries. A great advantage of AGM's is that they do not vent any gases and thus can be safely installed anywhere. AGM's are much more expensive than wet-cell batteries.
Gel
The Gel Cell is similar to the AGM style because the electrolyte is suspended, but different because technically the AGM battery is still considered to be a wet cell. The electrolyte in a Gel Cell has a silica additive that causes it to set up or stiffen. The recharge voltage on this type of cell is lower than the other styles of lead acid battery. This is probably the most sensitive cell in terms of adverse reactions to over-voltage charging. Gel Batteries are best used in VERY DEEP cycle application and may last a bit longer in hot weather applications.
Discharge of batteries
It is generally considered "not good" to discharge your wet-cell batteries more than 50% of their capacity. Doing so on a regular basis will greatly reduce the longevity of the batteries. So how do you know when you've used up half your amps? The simplest method is note the voltage of the batteries when there is no load on them.
Greg Holder from AM Solar gave these numbers at Life On Wheels in Moscow, ID: Flooded batteries (i.e. the Trojan battery almost all of us have) at 70 or 80 degrees will have the following charge vs. voltage relationship:
Rest Volts / State of Charge / Specific Gravity
12.65 / 100% / 1.265
12.47 / 75% / 1.225
12.34 / 50% / 1.190
12.24 / 25% / 1.120
11.89 / 0% / 1.120
Greg pointed out that "crudely" rounding to 0.1 volts, 12.6 is fully charged, 12.5 is 75% and 12.4 is 50%. If you want your batteries to last for any length of time, do not discharge them below 50% of capacity. I do not have a good reference at hand but you can discharge a battery to 25% for something like 50 or 75 times before its worn out. You can discharge a battery to 50% of capacity for several hundred times and to 75% for 1000 or 1500 times. Deep discharge will sharply shorten life. Generally speaking, the difference between regularly discharging a lead-acid battery 10% and regularly discharging it 90% is a tenfold reduction in battery lifespan.
Again, this is RESTING voltage, hours after a charge, and with NO LOAD. And in reality, this is only slightly more accurate than the idiot lights on the LD Systems Status panel.
A much better method of monitoring your batteries is to install a battery monitor, which is a digital meter/computer that reports voltage, amp flow into and out of battery, amp hours remaining and operating time left. Here are two manufacturers:
Xantrex LinkLite and LinkPro
TriMetric
Charging batteries
OK - so now you have an idea of the state of your batteries. How can you charge them?
- If you access to an electric hookup, plug in and let your converter/charger take over. See the Converter/Charger FAQ for ways to improve charging.
- Run your generator to charge them.
- If you don't have a generator, start the engine and let the alternator recharge them.
- Install solar panels for recharging the batteries.
- When in storage, if you have an outlet nearby, you can hook up a battery charger on a timer (using the timer to prevent over-charging).
Buying Batteries
When buying batteries, as with tires, it is good to know when they were manufactured. Here's how to read the date codes on Trojan batteries.
- Positive Terminal- Manufacturing Date. This code indicates the actual date when mechanical assembly of the battery was completed. At this point, electrolyte has not been added to the battery and formation charging has not taken place. LETTER stands for the month and could be anything from A to L (A=January, B=February, C=March, and so on); NUMBER stands for the date.
- Negative Terminal- Shipping Date. This code indicates the month and year when the battery was shipped out of the factory. LETTER stands for the month (see below); NUMBER is the last digit of the year.- Positive Terminal- Manufacturing Date. This code indicates the actual date when mechanical assembly of the battery was completed. At this point, electrolyte has not been added to the battery and formation charging has not taken place. LETTER stands for the month and could be anything from A to L (A=January, B=February, C=March, and so on); NUMBER stands for the date.
- Example: Consider a battery with "I26" stamped on the positive terminal and "J2" on the negative. "I26" means that the battery was assembled, without electrolyte, on September 26th. "J2" means that it was shipped from the factory around October of 2002.
Other Resources
Trojan Batteries Users Guide
Mark Nemeth's Battery Facts
phred Tinseth's BATTERIES--AND OTHER ELECTRIC STUFF
Contributors: Gus Weber, Larry Wade, Linley Gumm, bumper, Andy Baird, WxToad
Return to FAQ Index
Wednesday, January 26, 2011
Horst Tank Sensors
The standard tank and systems monitor installed by Lazy Daze is not a very reliable system, and many LD'ers choose to replace it with a more accurate system, such as SeeLevel or Horst. The See-Level seems to be the most popular, for it provides a much more accurate display of tank contents. The Horst merely replaces the tank sensors, but uses the same imprecise readout display.
The Horst sensors keep the existing LED system intact except for new sensors, which are purported to resist fouling or shorting out. The Horst probes are a low-cost way to make the existing "idiot light" system work the way it was supposed to but seldom does, while the more expensive SeeLevel gauge system is a way to get not only accurate but very precise information on tank levels.
The Horst Miracle Sensors claim to provide accurate readings using in-tank sensors, but they use the Lazy Daze's standard 4-LED display, which is very imprecise--that is, even with perfectly functioning sensors, it can only tell you that your tanks are empty, 33%, 67%, or full. Since the Horst probes work with your current display and don't require rewiring, installation is fairly simple. The Horst sensors are available for black and gray tanks only, at a total cost of about $65.
The potential problem with the Horst probes is that the rubber may break down and then the probe would leak or fall out - not the kind of problem I care to deal with. I do have experience with well nuts that are used on sail boats. When tightened they balloon up and form a water-tight seal. My experience is they last about five years before needing replacement. The Horst probes look like they use the same technique. This makes me wary of them. I put my concern to Horst and got this reply:
"The rubber grommets are identical to the ones every ABS tank is equipped with for 5th wheels and campers. It should last the life of the RV."
Installation
If you have LD-installed tank insulation, you'll have to scrape some off to get down to the tank's surface.
Replace the original sensors with the four sensors (including the ground) that you get with the Horst sensors. It should be a direct replacement.
If you can't get the old sensors out of the tank, there are two possible solutions. The first is to drill new holes for the Horst probes and leave the original ones in place; the other is to simply push the original probes into the tank and then insert the new ones. The old probes will most likely flush out the next time you dump the tank. Once the new probes are installed, tighten them up and connect to the existing wires.
Contributors: Larry Wade, Andy Baird, Don Malpas, WxToad
Return to FAQ Index
The Horst sensors keep the existing LED system intact except for new sensors, which are purported to resist fouling or shorting out. The Horst probes are a low-cost way to make the existing "idiot light" system work the way it was supposed to but seldom does, while the more expensive SeeLevel gauge system is a way to get not only accurate but very precise information on tank levels.
The Horst Miracle Sensors claim to provide accurate readings using in-tank sensors, but they use the Lazy Daze's standard 4-LED display, which is very imprecise--that is, even with perfectly functioning sensors, it can only tell you that your tanks are empty, 33%, 67%, or full. Since the Horst probes work with your current display and don't require rewiring, installation is fairly simple. The Horst sensors are available for black and gray tanks only, at a total cost of about $65.
The potential problem with the Horst probes is that the rubber may break down and then the probe would leak or fall out - not the kind of problem I care to deal with. I do have experience with well nuts that are used on sail boats. When tightened they balloon up and form a water-tight seal. My experience is they last about five years before needing replacement. The Horst probes look like they use the same technique. This makes me wary of them. I put my concern to Horst and got this reply:
"The rubber grommets are identical to the ones every ABS tank is equipped with for 5th wheels and campers. It should last the life of the RV."
Installation
If you have LD-installed tank insulation, you'll have to scrape some off to get down to the tank's surface.
Replace the original sensors with the four sensors (including the ground) that you get with the Horst sensors. It should be a direct replacement.
If you can't get the old sensors out of the tank, there are two possible solutions. The first is to drill new holes for the Horst probes and leave the original ones in place; the other is to simply push the original probes into the tank and then insert the new ones. The old probes will most likely flush out the next time you dump the tank. Once the new probes are installed, tighten them up and connect to the existing wires.
Contributors: Larry Wade, Andy Baird, Don Malpas, WxToad
Return to FAQ Index
SeeLevel Monitoring Systems
The standard tank and systems monitor installed by Lazy Daze is not a very reliable system, and many LD'ers choose to replace it with a more accurate system, such as SeeLevel or Horst. The See-Level seems to be the most popular, for it provides a much more accurate display of tank contents. The Horst merely replaces the tank sensors, but uses the same imprecise readout display. The SeeLevel adds a new set of sensors and a new panel. It provides a read-out for each tank in a percentage, changing every 4 percentage points (0-4-8-12%, etc.)
SeeLevel has proven customer service. They certainly appear to be long-lasting - many who have installed a system report that it is still working as advertised 6-7 years later.
The SeeLevel II gauge system reads out not only black and gray, but also fresh water and propane levels and battery voltage with the same accuracy and precision. It sells for about $210 total (model #711).
Probably the hardest part of installing a SeeLevel system is running the wires. It is possible to install it using the existing wiring, but trouble-shooting will be easier if you run new wires.
The Garnet SeeLevel II sensor strips are only usable with SeaLevel II display panels. The sensors won't work with any other readout system, whether Lazy Daze's or another RV manufacturer's.
The reason the SeeLevel II system works so well is that the strips sense the fluid level through the tank wall, convert the information to digital format, and send encoded digital signals to the display panel. Only the SeeLevel II panel can understand those codes. So you must buy both the SeeLevel II sensors and the SeeLevel display in order to have a usable system.
Can you use the existing sensor wiring? Yes, but personally I think it's a better idea to leave the old system intact "just in case," and run new wires (you only need two). Running the new wires is not a big deal. The hardest part of installing the SeeLevel II system is mounting the display panel, which requires a cutout with a couple inches of depth behind it.
Note that the SeeLevel sensors are NOT compatible with the LED readout display panel installed by Lazy Daze. You can use the existing wires, but they need to be disconnected at both ends and reconnected to the new sensors on the tanks and the SeeLevel Panel inside the rig.
***************
- The key to the whole thing was the removal of the microwave, probably the easiest task, unplug, 4 screws, lift up and out. This reveals the wire harness for the sensors on the range exhaust hood, and also made possible for us to make a 3"x 1-5/8" cutout to the right of the range hood, adjacent to the sink, for the face plate. There are a couple of small struts in this area after you do the cutout, but they can be shaved back slightly with a razor knife to make a perfect fit for the display panel's installation at the finish of the job.
We used a tap splice to connect the green wire from the Sea Level sensor to the green wire for the propane sensor which was bundled with the now visible wire harness from the exhaust hood. Other than that, we kept our wiring independent of the factory installed sensors.
Installing the senders on the black and grey tanks has been covered and is pretty straight forward as per the instructions that come with the kit. We did lots of splicing with Butt connectors. We bought 25' of blue # 16 wire at Home Depot (they were out of #18 which was recommended for the job). We were able to get #18 black for the ground.
Wear safety glasses, as this is dirty work. The hardest sender to install was the one on the fresh water tank, next to the water pump behind the lowest drawer. Empty the cabinet below the sink. Remove all the drawers and for more working space,and the wooden cover over the water inlets at the rear of the sink. The fresh water tank is taller (19") and would seem to need an extra sender. However, the people at Garnet Industries convinced me that I shouldn't buy another sender strip for $70, but rather put the one that came with the kit on the bottom of the fresh water tank. It will read 100% most of the time, but when it falls to 90% that would represent a half tank, and to do the math from there, which is what we did.
Andy's trick of coming up through the sealant where the wire harness enters from below the floor put us next to the water pump and allowed us to connect the wires from the black and grey tanks to the fresh water tank inside. It was a nasty job in limited area.
Then we brought all the joined tank wires up through the vent pipe that runs behind the sink by drilling one hole into the pipe directly underneath the counter and another in the cabinet space made visible by the removal of the microwave. (Note - this vent is for the black water tank. Make very sure that the drilled holes are well sealed when you are done! Also, you do not need to fish all the wires separately. You need one blue and one black, run from all the sensors to the panel. Editor) As we were by the Home Depot we managed to waste time and energy by buying a fish tape to try to come down directly through the wall. We returned the fish tape device and after some trial and error, we put a string with a screw taped on with electrical tape down the pipe and fished it out with a hooked dental tool. Then we taped our tank wires to the string and pulled them up and re-fished with no problem.
After testing with a multimeter we used the hot and ground wires in the micro cabinet, connected the sender wires to the Sea Level II wire harness, including the green LP wire mentioned above. We tested again. Voila! Everything worked. We went back and removed the temporary masking tape installation recommended by Garnet, pulled off the backing and stuck the senders on permanently. We screwed the face plate on and tapped a cool one. Beverly
**************
- I decided to mount the Seelevel monitor display above the propane detector because it would eliminate the need to route wires through the walls or put a hole in the cabinets. One easy to cut hole in the paneling was all it took. No complicated wiring routes. No disturbing the existing wiring either. Installing it here did not make it look like it was installed as an after thought.
Not wanting to drill a hole in the floor of the rig to run wires, I poked a hole in the sealant surrounding the sensor wires LD had used. I actually used half of a plastic ball point pen as a small conduit in that hole so I could easily push and pull wires through that area. After all wiring was done, I used some sealant to seal the end of the pen/conduit. BTW, by routing the wires through that area and mounting the display above the propane detector, it was a simple process to connect all the wires, at least in the mid-bath floor plan.
By having the Seelevel monitor display above the propane detector, I could easily tap into power from either the water pump or the propane detector circuit. It was also easy to connect to the water tank sensor.
I have not connected Seelevel to the propane tank so far. I was not concerned with monitoring the propane since I did leave the factory monitor intact and it is easy to check the tank's gauge.
Once you decide where and how to install this system, it is not complicated if you install it like I did. Yes, we need to bend over to push the button to read the display but it is not something we do constantly. Steve Kocan
***********************
-I wanted to have my indicator in the cabinet wall above the microwave. I removed the microwave (4 screws, and unplug it) to get access and room to work. Before cutting any holes in the paneling, I wanted to be sure I could get the wiring into position.
The gauges require that two wires run from the sensors on the tanks to the display. It did not occur to me to use the wire passage through the floor by pushing a tool through the glop of sealant from LD. Instead, I used a piece of 1/4" rubber tube and placed it into a hole drilled through the floor alongside the steel frame. That took some careful measurement to get it right. Before pushing the tube down into the hole, I shot some Great Stuff expanding foam into the hole. I pushed the tube through and about 6" beyond the floor. I let the Great Stuff harden, then cut off most of the excess underneath. I used more of the foam alongside the hole in the bottom to fully seal it. I now had a hole from underneath into the space next to my water pump.
I next drilled 2 1/4" holes in the black tank vent pipe, the first under the sink and the second next to the microwave. I fished the two wires from the top hole to the lower hole and pulled through plenty of excess. I put grommets on each hole and glopped caulk over each hole to fully seal them.
In the lower compartment, I attached the first sensor to the water tank. Underneath, I spliced a 2 conductor wire to each of the sensors and attached then to the tanks. I then spliced the wires together, feeding the resulting 2 conductor lead up through the floor using the tube. I then injected caulk under pressure into the tube until it came out the other end, thoroughly sealing it while protecting the wires.
I now had two wires from the fresh water tank, two wires from the grey and black water tanks, and two wires from the area by the microwave, all in one place - by the water pump. I spliced them together and closed the access panel by the water pump.
Above the microwave, I tapped into the wires for my power feed and the propane sensor. I temporarily connected the panel to be sure all was working. It was. I cut the hole in the cabinet paneling above the microwave, mounted, and connected the display panel. I again checked all splices, wire tied the wiring in place, and added some more caulk over the holes in the vent tube, then closed everything up.
It was a two person job that took us a few hours, but the result was worth it. I had a very convenient location for the panel. The installation looks very clean. Ken Fears
**************************
- Garnet's installation instructions say "The sender needs to be grounded to a single ground wire from the display." Now, in theory, separately grounding both the sender and the display *should* work... but if I were you, I'd run a ground wire directly between the two, the way the instructions say to do.
Using the existing wiring:
Should you choose to use the existing LD wiring for your sensors, the big challenge is identifying the right wire. Ken Fears offers this advice (Note - this applies only if you are disconnecting the factory sensors and using those wires for the SeeLevel signal. - Editor):
The three sending units require a total of ONE signal wire (tied to the blue) and ONE ground wire (tied to the black. that goes up to the panel. The three sensors have identifiers in them to tell the panel where the signal originates. So, you need to find two wires to use.
If I were you, I would disconnect two of the wires from one of your tanks and read their color code. I would then go behind the panel and find the two wires with those codes. Get hold of a continuity tester/voltmeter. Push a straight pin through the insulation on one of the wires and check continuity from there to the disconnected end by the tank. You should get a reading indicating that there is continuity. Then check voltage between the pin and a ground. Check it without closing the switch that lights the indicator lights as well as when pressing the panel switch to activate the tank indicator lights. Do that with each of the two wires. If you read voltage it is coming from the indicator light panel. I expect that you WILL find voltage there, and that is what is probably causing your problems.
You can't just splice into those wires because they carry voltage for the tank indicator lights. You need a clean signal from the tanks to the SeeLevel display, uncontaminated by other ground or voltage. I would try to disconnect the two wires from the indicator lights. All else failing, if I have voltage and continuity, and I cannot disconnect from the indicator lights, I would cut and cap the wires leading to the indicator lights. On the cut wires, I would again check continuity and voltage. If you have continuity but no voltage, you should be good to go, as that would indicate to me that the wires are now isolated and continuous from the tanks up to behind the panel.
If, on the other hand, you still have voltage on the cut wires OR you lose continuity on the cut wires, then something strange that I do not understand is going on. In that case, splice the cut wires back together.
Assuming that you are good to go, to the two cut ends, connect a blue and a black wire (color is important only to help you remember what you did in the future), and connect them to the SeeLevel panel. Below the rig, connect the blue and black sensor wires to the appropriate disconnected wires.
Rod Michaelson recently installed a See Level II 709PH monitor in his '97 26.5 MB and has posted a great set of photos of his project.
Trouble-Shooting
Problem: "OPn" message displayed on read-out
In the booklet under Chapter 7 troubleshooting guide.
"If a sender is unresponsive or there is an open circuit in the wiring so that the sender is not connected, the display will indicate an open circuit by showing "OPn" on the LED display." Check the tank "sender" wire connection. That's the green circuit board attached to the tank - check the wire connections there. Check all wire splices - a faulty or corroded crimp may be the problem. Also - don't forget to check ground connections.
Problem: Gauge reading of zero volts
Although the readings appear normal, the gauge indicates a reading of zero volts. According to Garnet Industries, the monitor needs to be calibrated. Here's how:
- Unplug the display panel and then re-plug it while holding the BATT button down.
- This may give you a correct reading for the battery voltage, but hang up the system with the battery voltage displayed and giving no readings on the other buttons.
- Repeat the above step - it should then be showing everything normally.
Contributors: Larry Wade, Andy Baird, Beverly, Steve Kocan, Ken Fears, Ed Abrams, Art. Rod Michaelson, Barry Barnes
Revised 30 Mar 12
Return to FAQ Index
SeeLevel has proven customer service. They certainly appear to be long-lasting - many who have installed a system report that it is still working as advertised 6-7 years later.
The SeeLevel II gauge system reads out not only black and gray, but also fresh water and propane levels and battery voltage with the same accuracy and precision. It sells for about $210 total (model #711).
Probably the hardest part of installing a SeeLevel system is running the wires. It is possible to install it using the existing wiring, but trouble-shooting will be easier if you run new wires.
The Garnet SeeLevel II sensor strips are only usable with SeaLevel II display panels. The sensors won't work with any other readout system, whether Lazy Daze's or another RV manufacturer's.
The reason the SeeLevel II system works so well is that the strips sense the fluid level through the tank wall, convert the information to digital format, and send encoded digital signals to the display panel. Only the SeeLevel II panel can understand those codes. So you must buy both the SeeLevel II sensors and the SeeLevel display in order to have a usable system.
Can you use the existing sensor wiring? Yes, but personally I think it's a better idea to leave the old system intact "just in case," and run new wires (you only need two). Running the new wires is not a big deal. The hardest part of installing the SeeLevel II system is mounting the display panel, which requires a cutout with a couple inches of depth behind it.
Note that the SeeLevel sensors are NOT compatible with the LED readout display panel installed by Lazy Daze. You can use the existing wires, but they need to be disconnected at both ends and reconnected to the new sensors on the tanks and the SeeLevel Panel inside the rig.
Installation: Here are a few installation reports:
***************
- The key to the whole thing was the removal of the microwave, probably the easiest task, unplug, 4 screws, lift up and out. This reveals the wire harness for the sensors on the range exhaust hood, and also made possible for us to make a 3"x 1-5/8" cutout to the right of the range hood, adjacent to the sink, for the face plate. There are a couple of small struts in this area after you do the cutout, but they can be shaved back slightly with a razor knife to make a perfect fit for the display panel's installation at the finish of the job.
We used a tap splice to connect the green wire from the Sea Level sensor to the green wire for the propane sensor which was bundled with the now visible wire harness from the exhaust hood. Other than that, we kept our wiring independent of the factory installed sensors.
Installing the senders on the black and grey tanks has been covered and is pretty straight forward as per the instructions that come with the kit. We did lots of splicing with Butt connectors. We bought 25' of blue # 16 wire at Home Depot (they were out of #18 which was recommended for the job). We were able to get #18 black for the ground.
Wear safety glasses, as this is dirty work. The hardest sender to install was the one on the fresh water tank, next to the water pump behind the lowest drawer. Empty the cabinet below the sink. Remove all the drawers and for more working space,and the wooden cover over the water inlets at the rear of the sink. The fresh water tank is taller (19") and would seem to need an extra sender. However, the people at Garnet Industries convinced me that I shouldn't buy another sender strip for $70, but rather put the one that came with the kit on the bottom of the fresh water tank. It will read 100% most of the time, but when it falls to 90% that would represent a half tank, and to do the math from there, which is what we did.
Andy's trick of coming up through the sealant where the wire harness enters from below the floor put us next to the water pump and allowed us to connect the wires from the black and grey tanks to the fresh water tank inside. It was a nasty job in limited area.
Then we brought all the joined tank wires up through the vent pipe that runs behind the sink by drilling one hole into the pipe directly underneath the counter and another in the cabinet space made visible by the removal of the microwave. (Note - this vent is for the black water tank. Make very sure that the drilled holes are well sealed when you are done! Also, you do not need to fish all the wires separately. You need one blue and one black, run from all the sensors to the panel. Editor) As we were by the Home Depot we managed to waste time and energy by buying a fish tape to try to come down directly through the wall. We returned the fish tape device and after some trial and error, we put a string with a screw taped on with electrical tape down the pipe and fished it out with a hooked dental tool. Then we taped our tank wires to the string and pulled them up and re-fished with no problem.
After testing with a multimeter we used the hot and ground wires in the micro cabinet, connected the sender wires to the Sea Level II wire harness, including the green LP wire mentioned above. We tested again. Voila! Everything worked. We went back and removed the temporary masking tape installation recommended by Garnet, pulled off the backing and stuck the senders on permanently. We screwed the face plate on and tapped a cool one. Beverly
**************
- I decided to mount the Seelevel monitor display above the propane detector because it would eliminate the need to route wires through the walls or put a hole in the cabinets. One easy to cut hole in the paneling was all it took. No complicated wiring routes. No disturbing the existing wiring either. Installing it here did not make it look like it was installed as an after thought.
Not wanting to drill a hole in the floor of the rig to run wires, I poked a hole in the sealant surrounding the sensor wires LD had used. I actually used half of a plastic ball point pen as a small conduit in that hole so I could easily push and pull wires through that area. After all wiring was done, I used some sealant to seal the end of the pen/conduit. BTW, by routing the wires through that area and mounting the display above the propane detector, it was a simple process to connect all the wires, at least in the mid-bath floor plan.
By having the Seelevel monitor display above the propane detector, I could easily tap into power from either the water pump or the propane detector circuit. It was also easy to connect to the water tank sensor.
I have not connected Seelevel to the propane tank so far. I was not concerned with monitoring the propane since I did leave the factory monitor intact and it is easy to check the tank's gauge.
Once you decide where and how to install this system, it is not complicated if you install it like I did. Yes, we need to bend over to push the button to read the display but it is not something we do constantly. Steve Kocan
***********************
-I wanted to have my indicator in the cabinet wall above the microwave. I removed the microwave (4 screws, and unplug it) to get access and room to work. Before cutting any holes in the paneling, I wanted to be sure I could get the wiring into position.
The gauges require that two wires run from the sensors on the tanks to the display. It did not occur to me to use the wire passage through the floor by pushing a tool through the glop of sealant from LD. Instead, I used a piece of 1/4" rubber tube and placed it into a hole drilled through the floor alongside the steel frame. That took some careful measurement to get it right. Before pushing the tube down into the hole, I shot some Great Stuff expanding foam into the hole. I pushed the tube through and about 6" beyond the floor. I let the Great Stuff harden, then cut off most of the excess underneath. I used more of the foam alongside the hole in the bottom to fully seal it. I now had a hole from underneath into the space next to my water pump.
I next drilled 2 1/4" holes in the black tank vent pipe, the first under the sink and the second next to the microwave. I fished the two wires from the top hole to the lower hole and pulled through plenty of excess. I put grommets on each hole and glopped caulk over each hole to fully seal them.
In the lower compartment, I attached the first sensor to the water tank. Underneath, I spliced a 2 conductor wire to each of the sensors and attached then to the tanks. I then spliced the wires together, feeding the resulting 2 conductor lead up through the floor using the tube. I then injected caulk under pressure into the tube until it came out the other end, thoroughly sealing it while protecting the wires.
I now had two wires from the fresh water tank, two wires from the grey and black water tanks, and two wires from the area by the microwave, all in one place - by the water pump. I spliced them together and closed the access panel by the water pump.
Above the microwave, I tapped into the wires for my power feed and the propane sensor. I temporarily connected the panel to be sure all was working. It was. I cut the hole in the cabinet paneling above the microwave, mounted, and connected the display panel. I again checked all splices, wire tied the wiring in place, and added some more caulk over the holes in the vent tube, then closed everything up.
It was a two person job that took us a few hours, but the result was worth it. I had a very convenient location for the panel. The installation looks very clean. Ken Fears
**************************
- Garnet's installation instructions say "The sender needs to be grounded to a single ground wire from the display." Now, in theory, separately grounding both the sender and the display *should* work... but if I were you, I'd run a ground wire directly between the two, the way the instructions say to do.
Using the existing wiring:
Should you choose to use the existing LD wiring for your sensors, the big challenge is identifying the right wire. Ken Fears offers this advice (Note - this applies only if you are disconnecting the factory sensors and using those wires for the SeeLevel signal. - Editor):
The three sending units require a total of ONE signal wire (tied to the blue) and ONE ground wire (tied to the black. that goes up to the panel. The three sensors have identifiers in them to tell the panel where the signal originates. So, you need to find two wires to use.
If I were you, I would disconnect two of the wires from one of your tanks and read their color code. I would then go behind the panel and find the two wires with those codes. Get hold of a continuity tester/voltmeter. Push a straight pin through the insulation on one of the wires and check continuity from there to the disconnected end by the tank. You should get a reading indicating that there is continuity. Then check voltage between the pin and a ground. Check it without closing the switch that lights the indicator lights as well as when pressing the panel switch to activate the tank indicator lights. Do that with each of the two wires. If you read voltage it is coming from the indicator light panel. I expect that you WILL find voltage there, and that is what is probably causing your problems.
You can't just splice into those wires because they carry voltage for the tank indicator lights. You need a clean signal from the tanks to the SeeLevel display, uncontaminated by other ground or voltage. I would try to disconnect the two wires from the indicator lights. All else failing, if I have voltage and continuity, and I cannot disconnect from the indicator lights, I would cut and cap the wires leading to the indicator lights. On the cut wires, I would again check continuity and voltage. If you have continuity but no voltage, you should be good to go, as that would indicate to me that the wires are now isolated and continuous from the tanks up to behind the panel.
If, on the other hand, you still have voltage on the cut wires OR you lose continuity on the cut wires, then something strange that I do not understand is going on. In that case, splice the cut wires back together.
Assuming that you are good to go, to the two cut ends, connect a blue and a black wire (color is important only to help you remember what you did in the future), and connect them to the SeeLevel panel. Below the rig, connect the blue and black sensor wires to the appropriate disconnected wires.
Rod Michaelson recently installed a See Level II 709PH monitor in his '97 26.5 MB and has posted a great set of photos of his project.
Trouble-Shooting
Problem: "OPn" message displayed on read-out
In the booklet under Chapter 7 troubleshooting guide.
"If a sender is unresponsive or there is an open circuit in the wiring so that the sender is not connected, the display will indicate an open circuit by showing "OPn" on the LED display." Check the tank "sender" wire connection. That's the green circuit board attached to the tank - check the wire connections there. Check all wire splices - a faulty or corroded crimp may be the problem. Also - don't forget to check ground connections.
Problem: Gauge reading of zero volts
Although the readings appear normal, the gauge indicates a reading of zero volts. According to Garnet Industries, the monitor needs to be calibrated. Here's how:
- Unplug the display panel and then re-plug it while holding the BATT button down.
- This may give you a correct reading for the battery voltage, but hang up the system with the battery voltage displayed and giving no readings on the other buttons.
- Repeat the above step - it should then be showing everything normally.
Contributors: Larry Wade, Andy Baird, Beverly, Steve Kocan, Ken Fears, Ed Abrams, Art. Rod Michaelson, Barry Barnes
Revised 30 Mar 12
Return to FAQ Index
Holding Tank Chemicals
There are many brands and kinds of holding tank additives all claiming to control odor and dissolve solids. Each one has it's proponents who will tell you it is the best. For me, all I can tell you is take your pick.
Many RV'ers recommend enzyme-based chemicals which use live bacteria to breakdown and digest the odor causing waste. I've had fair results with some of them but so far I have not found a standout favorite and none of these enzyme based additives does a really good job of controlling odor.
I don't think there is any difference between the liquid and dry as far as how they work. We like the dry packets because they store better, but they also create dust when poured which we don't like to breathe. So we generally go with the liquids.
I've tried a lot of home brew chemicals with varied success. None proved to work as well or were too much hassle. I've also tried some non-RV odor control chemicals.
For a while I was using OdoBan that I got at Sam's Club. It's a potent liquid that does eliminate the holding tank odor provided you start with a clean tank. But it's odor wasn't much better.
After all the different chemicals I've used I've gone back to the tried and true formaldehyde. Now before you get too excited, I know there is a lot of controversy on this subject. I'm not evangelizing but I don't care if you feel differently. I've done my own research and I'm convinced that the whole formaldehyde scare is way too much hype with very little substance.
The following quote is from the Washington State Department of Transportation.
"Commercially available RV additives when used as recommended by the manufacturer will have no adverse effect on biological sewage treatment systems. "Home-made" mixtures of household cleaners and disinfectants should be discouraged as the proportion of each ingredient has not been established and the minimum quantity to control odors and biological activity are unknown. These "home-made" mixtures cause a temporary shock to biological sewage treatment units under certain conditions."
This quote isn't my only source but I thought I'd put one in just so you'd know that I did, in fact, have some credible information to support my opinion.
Please also note the part about using home-made additives.
and Counterpoint...
There are some who feel that adding chemicals is not necessary. Marketers will urge the use of chemicals - that is how they make their money. If you want to try the chemical-free way, give it a tank or three worth of use without any chemicals, then make your own decision as to the need for chemicals. Those of us who do not use chemicals acknowledge that occasional cleaning with a detergent may still be needed. This seems to be the case whether or not you use chemicals on a regular basis. For a detailed discussion on chemical-free systems, see http://www.phrannie.org/macerator.html
Contributors: Steven Fletcher, Ken Fears
Return to FAQ Index
Many RV'ers recommend enzyme-based chemicals which use live bacteria to breakdown and digest the odor causing waste. I've had fair results with some of them but so far I have not found a standout favorite and none of these enzyme based additives does a really good job of controlling odor.
I don't think there is any difference between the liquid and dry as far as how they work. We like the dry packets because they store better, but they also create dust when poured which we don't like to breathe. So we generally go with the liquids.
I've tried a lot of home brew chemicals with varied success. None proved to work as well or were too much hassle. I've also tried some non-RV odor control chemicals.
For a while I was using OdoBan that I got at Sam's Club. It's a potent liquid that does eliminate the holding tank odor provided you start with a clean tank. But it's odor wasn't much better.
After all the different chemicals I've used I've gone back to the tried and true formaldehyde. Now before you get too excited, I know there is a lot of controversy on this subject. I'm not evangelizing but I don't care if you feel differently. I've done my own research and I'm convinced that the whole formaldehyde scare is way too much hype with very little substance.
The following quote is from the Washington State Department of Transportation.
"Commercially available RV additives when used as recommended by the manufacturer will have no adverse effect on biological sewage treatment systems. "Home-made" mixtures of household cleaners and disinfectants should be discouraged as the proportion of each ingredient has not been established and the minimum quantity to control odors and biological activity are unknown. These "home-made" mixtures cause a temporary shock to biological sewage treatment units under certain conditions."
This quote isn't my only source but I thought I'd put one in just so you'd know that I did, in fact, have some credible information to support my opinion.
Please also note the part about using home-made additives.
Caring for your holding tanks...
Generally, you need to add chemicals to the black-water tank after each dump. Same for the gray-water tank although I don't feel it is as important. After you have drained and rinsed the black-water tank, close the valve and add enough fresh water to cover the bottom about an inch deep. Then add the chemicals. I like to add the chemicals a little at a time as I 'flush' the toilet. I think it helps disburse the chemicals.
When we're hooked up to park services, we leave our gray water tank valve open. When we're 'hooked up', for an extended time... several weeks... I like to close the gray water valve, add some chemical to the tank, and let it fill up. I do this about once a week. It seems to keep the tank from getting sour... which can be almost as bad a smell as the black tank!and Counterpoint...
There are some who feel that adding chemicals is not necessary. Marketers will urge the use of chemicals - that is how they make their money. If you want to try the chemical-free way, give it a tank or three worth of use without any chemicals, then make your own decision as to the need for chemicals. Those of us who do not use chemicals acknowledge that occasional cleaning with a detergent may still be needed. This seems to be the case whether or not you use chemicals on a regular basis. For a detailed discussion on chemical-free systems, see http://www.phrannie.org/macerator.html
Contributors: Steven Fletcher, Ken Fears
Return to FAQ Index
Cab Seats
Seat comfort, vibration and the lack of a swiveling capability are relatively common complaints from Lazy Daze owners. Essentially all Ford Cutaway Cab chassis are bought by RV manufacturers without seats. For many years the front seats in LDs were made by Butterfield Interiors in Upland, CA and were essentially aftermarket items. LD changed suppliers 2-3 years ago. You can address both vibration and swiveling by replacing the seat base.
First, you should that your insurance covers you if you modify the seats. It's pure myth to say otherwise. This comes from a Lazy Daze owner who is a retired claims manager. I have heard him say that your insurance covers stupidity. Not that changing your seats is stupid, but it underscores that you are covered.
Comfort
Since an aftermarket seat is not unusual on the E450, a good starting place for replacing an uncomfortable driver's seat would be a RV show, sitting in other E450 based Class C's. If one has a comfortable seat, look at the seat tag under the seat and buy a set from that seat manufacturer. You could even order them in a neutral Ultraleather and upgrade your cab appearance at the same time.
Don McGlothen went so far as to open up his seat to modify the front edge - you can read his full report in the Driver's Seat Modification FAQ.
Swiveling & Vibration
Both of these problems can be resolved with the replacement of the standard seat base plate, at least on the passenger's side. Caution: One LD'er was leery of making a seat-base change due to insurance considerations - if the installation is not "approved", your insurance company might refuse to cover you in case of an accident.
Replacement bases are available from a number of sources. Two cited by LD'ers are:
Discount Van & Truck
Kustom Fit .
8990 Atlantic Ave.
Box 3004
South Gate, CA 90280
323-564-4481
Installation
For reasons known only to the Ford engineers, the standard seat mountings use #55 Torx bolts in the front and regular nuts-and-bolts in the rear. They require a 1/2 inch drive. You might squirt some WD-40 on the bolts the night before to help free them up. There's an electrical wire that comes up through the floor and attaches to the seat frame, but it has a connector junction which, by trial and error, and error, etc., comes apart quite easily in the end. Disconnect that, unbolt the four floor bolts, and rock the seat back to gain access to where the old base attaches to the seat frame. Four more nuts and it's off.
The swivel base has pre-drilled holes that line up perfectly with the floor bolts. HOWEVER! Make sure when ordering that you order the passenger-side seat, not the driver's. The bases are not the same. Just reverse the steps to reinstall and you're done. Cut away the carpeting to the edge of the base plate so that there is metal-to-metal contact between the cab floor and the base plate. The electrical wire for the seat is routed up through a new hole in the carpeting, and there should be enough slack to re-connect it to the seat fitting.
Problems. The base may mount the seat just a smidge too far to the right. As a consequence, when at the final portion of turning it around, it hits in two places - the seatbelt roller box and the armrest. You can file off a corner of the roller box, and removing the armrest will solve that issue. You'll have to move the seat all the way forward on its track to fully swivel the seat.
Lumbar Support
- Both seats have built-in lumbar support, adjusted by using the knob on the aisle-side of the seat. Some folks want even more, however.
- I had tried a variety of lumbar supports over the years, but none was more than marginally helpful. Then a friend recommended the Obusforme CustomAir, and I found it worked very well for me. I have not had a backache while driving since I started using it.
Here is another step-by-step set of instructions, very detailed:
We recently installed a swivel base for the passenger seat in our 2015 TK, and it went so well I thought I'd share some tips with the group in case anyone else is wondering how to do this. We used to have a '93 Sportsmobile with a swivel base already installed, and have been wanting one in our Lazy Daze ever since. I'm happy to report that this is a relatively easy upgrade that two people can easily accomplish.
1. Order the swivel base from Sportsmobile -- this is the one that actually fits. It's worth the extra cost compared to the "cheap" ones which have misaligned holes and other problems. As far as I can tell, this particular swivel base is sold only by Sportsmobile, but obviously it will fit any Ford van from the early 90s to the current model.
2. Watch this extremely helpful video for some basic information on removing the OEM seat from the base, and removing the seat base from the cab. The seat isn't especially heavy (at least the standard cloth seat in the '15 model anyway), but it's big and bulky, so a helper will make it easier to remove and reinstall the seat.
3. IMPORTANT: There's a wire harness for the seatbelt tensioner that has to be disconnected before you can remove the seat from the seat base. Follow the instructions in the video carefully and don't just yank it apart.
4. Also important: You will need a TORX T55 socket to remove the bolts holding the seat base to the floor of the van cab. You will probably need to get this from Sears, as Harbor Freight didn't have them. You'll also need a couple of wrenches for the other bolts. Make sure you have a clean surface to store the seat once it's out, so it doesn't get dirty.
5. Once you have the seat and the original seat base out, unclip the seat belt tensioner wire harness from under the front of the seat so it can be routed around the back. This will allow you to revolve the seat without having to detach and reattach the wires or add an extension.
6. Put the swivel base in position and loosely fasten the bolts to hold it in position. You'll need to cut the carpet away so there's enough threads to fasten the bolts properly. Use a Sharpie to trace around the bottom of the seat base where it meets the carpet. Sniffing the Sharpie is optional, but don't get carried away and get all light-headed or you'll cut yourself in the next step.
7. Use a utility knife to (carefully) cut the carpet away where the seat base will sit. Count your fingers before AND after this procedure. Miraculously, this is one area where the Mothership didn't use a gallon of mil-spec adhesive to stick the carpet down.
8. Take the wire coming from the floor and position it straight back towards the rear of the coach.
9. Possibly optional, but worth the extra trouble: Use something on either side of the wire to act as a spacer between the seat base and the floor, to avoid pinching the wire.
10. Lower the swivel base into position and tighten the bolts.
11. Reinstall the seat on the new base, routing the seat side of the wire to the back, and reconnect it to its other half.
12. Throw out or recycle the OEM seat base. You won't need it, and even if you do, there's sure to be a junkyard nearby with a good selection.
Rotating the seat after installation is straightforward, but takes a couple of steps:
1. Return the seat back to the upright position (yeah, we've all heard that announcement), then move the seat all the way forward. You might want to do this from outside, with the passenger door open.
2. Pull the unlocking lever on the seat base (it starts out on the left side of the seat) and move the seat counter-clockwise. At some point it won't move any further, and you'll need to move the seat "back" to get it to go the rest of the way. Pay careful attention to the seatbelt tensioner wires to make sure they don't stretch or bind -- you may have to de-clipify it some more from the seat to free it up.
3. Depending on the model year, the arm rest may be a tight fit against the passenger door once the seat is facing backwards. Make sure not to hurt anything (or yourself) while closing the door. We'll probably just remove the armrest eventually.
Reverse the procedure before driving the coach again. It's (probably) illegal, and definitely unsafe to occupy the passenger seat while facing backwards when the vehicle is moving.
DON'T attempt to put the driver's seat on a swivel base. Just don't.
We've found that this instantly adds useful living space to our small coach. The passenger seat sits slightly higher than it did before, but that's not really a problem, and you gain some of that back by excavating the carpet during installation.
Revised: 15 September 2016
Contributors: Don McG, Will, Jon, Thefuofus
Return to FAQ Index
First, you should that your insurance covers you if you modify the seats. It's pure myth to say otherwise. This comes from a Lazy Daze owner who is a retired claims manager. I have heard him say that your insurance covers stupidity. Not that changing your seats is stupid, but it underscores that you are covered.
Comfort
Since an aftermarket seat is not unusual on the E450, a good starting place for replacing an uncomfortable driver's seat would be a RV show, sitting in other E450 based Class C's. If one has a comfortable seat, look at the seat tag under the seat and buy a set from that seat manufacturer. You could even order them in a neutral Ultraleather and upgrade your cab appearance at the same time.
Don McGlothen went so far as to open up his seat to modify the front edge - you can read his full report in the Driver's Seat Modification FAQ.
Swiveling & Vibration
Both of these problems can be resolved with the replacement of the standard seat base plate, at least on the passenger's side. Caution: One LD'er was leery of making a seat-base change due to insurance considerations - if the installation is not "approved", your insurance company might refuse to cover you in case of an accident.
Replacement bases are available from a number of sources. Two cited by LD'ers are:
Discount Van & Truck
Kustom Fit .
8990 Atlantic Ave.
Box 3004
South Gate, CA 90280
323-564-4481
Installation
For reasons known only to the Ford engineers, the standard seat mountings use #55 Torx bolts in the front and regular nuts-and-bolts in the rear. They require a 1/2 inch drive. You might squirt some WD-40 on the bolts the night before to help free them up. There's an electrical wire that comes up through the floor and attaches to the seat frame, but it has a connector junction which, by trial and error, and error, etc., comes apart quite easily in the end. Disconnect that, unbolt the four floor bolts, and rock the seat back to gain access to where the old base attaches to the seat frame. Four more nuts and it's off.
The swivel base has pre-drilled holes that line up perfectly with the floor bolts. HOWEVER! Make sure when ordering that you order the passenger-side seat, not the driver's. The bases are not the same. Just reverse the steps to reinstall and you're done. Cut away the carpeting to the edge of the base plate so that there is metal-to-metal contact between the cab floor and the base plate. The electrical wire for the seat is routed up through a new hole in the carpeting, and there should be enough slack to re-connect it to the seat fitting.
Problems. The base may mount the seat just a smidge too far to the right. As a consequence, when at the final portion of turning it around, it hits in two places - the seatbelt roller box and the armrest. You can file off a corner of the roller box, and removing the armrest will solve that issue. You'll have to move the seat all the way forward on its track to fully swivel the seat.
Lumbar Support
- Both seats have built-in lumbar support, adjusted by using the knob on the aisle-side of the seat. Some folks want even more, however.
- I had tried a variety of lumbar supports over the years, but none was more than marginally helpful. Then a friend recommended the Obusforme CustomAir, and I found it worked very well for me. I have not had a backache while driving since I started using it.
Here is another step-by-step set of instructions, very detailed:
We recently installed a swivel base for the passenger seat in our 2015 TK, and it went so well I thought I'd share some tips with the group in case anyone else is wondering how to do this. We used to have a '93 Sportsmobile with a swivel base already installed, and have been wanting one in our Lazy Daze ever since. I'm happy to report that this is a relatively easy upgrade that two people can easily accomplish.
1. Order the swivel base from Sportsmobile -- this is the one that actually fits. It's worth the extra cost compared to the "cheap" ones which have misaligned holes and other problems. As far as I can tell, this particular swivel base is sold only by Sportsmobile, but obviously it will fit any Ford van from the early 90s to the current model.
2. Watch this extremely helpful video for some basic information on removing the OEM seat from the base, and removing the seat base from the cab. The seat isn't especially heavy (at least the standard cloth seat in the '15 model anyway), but it's big and bulky, so a helper will make it easier to remove and reinstall the seat.
3. IMPORTANT: There's a wire harness for the seatbelt tensioner that has to be disconnected before you can remove the seat from the seat base. Follow the instructions in the video carefully and don't just yank it apart.
4. Also important: You will need a TORX T55 socket to remove the bolts holding the seat base to the floor of the van cab. You will probably need to get this from Sears, as Harbor Freight didn't have them. You'll also need a couple of wrenches for the other bolts. Make sure you have a clean surface to store the seat once it's out, so it doesn't get dirty.
5. Once you have the seat and the original seat base out, unclip the seat belt tensioner wire harness from under the front of the seat so it can be routed around the back. This will allow you to revolve the seat without having to detach and reattach the wires or add an extension.
6. Put the swivel base in position and loosely fasten the bolts to hold it in position. You'll need to cut the carpet away so there's enough threads to fasten the bolts properly. Use a Sharpie to trace around the bottom of the seat base where it meets the carpet. Sniffing the Sharpie is optional, but don't get carried away and get all light-headed or you'll cut yourself in the next step.
7. Use a utility knife to (carefully) cut the carpet away where the seat base will sit. Count your fingers before AND after this procedure. Miraculously, this is one area where the Mothership didn't use a gallon of mil-spec adhesive to stick the carpet down.
8. Take the wire coming from the floor and position it straight back towards the rear of the coach.
9. Possibly optional, but worth the extra trouble: Use something on either side of the wire to act as a spacer between the seat base and the floor, to avoid pinching the wire.
10. Lower the swivel base into position and tighten the bolts.
11. Reinstall the seat on the new base, routing the seat side of the wire to the back, and reconnect it to its other half.
12. Throw out or recycle the OEM seat base. You won't need it, and even if you do, there's sure to be a junkyard nearby with a good selection.
Rotating the seat after installation is straightforward, but takes a couple of steps:
1. Return the seat back to the upright position (yeah, we've all heard that announcement), then move the seat all the way forward. You might want to do this from outside, with the passenger door open.
2. Pull the unlocking lever on the seat base (it starts out on the left side of the seat) and move the seat counter-clockwise. At some point it won't move any further, and you'll need to move the seat "back" to get it to go the rest of the way. Pay careful attention to the seatbelt tensioner wires to make sure they don't stretch or bind -- you may have to de-clipify it some more from the seat to free it up.
3. Depending on the model year, the arm rest may be a tight fit against the passenger door once the seat is facing backwards. Make sure not to hurt anything (or yourself) while closing the door. We'll probably just remove the armrest eventually.
Reverse the procedure before driving the coach again. It's (probably) illegal, and definitely unsafe to occupy the passenger seat while facing backwards when the vehicle is moving.
DON'T attempt to put the driver's seat on a swivel base. Just don't.
We've found that this instantly adds useful living space to our small coach. The passenger seat sits slightly higher than it did before, but that's not really a problem, and you gain some of that back by excavating the carpet during installation.
Revised: 15 September 2016
Contributors: Don McG, Will, Jon, Thefuofus
Return to FAQ Index
Tuesday, January 25, 2011
Holding Tank Valves
Needless to say, properly operating holding tank valves can sure keep your life pleasant. Here are some tips for routine maintenance and trouble-shooting.
Routine Maintenance
The most common problem is that the slide valves become harder to operate. In extreme cases, the handle has been know to pull completely off. To prevent this, a little lubrication will be a big help. Before lubricating, a good cleaning of the valves is recommended. Naturally you want to have dumped and flushed your tanks before doing this.
- Use a small brush with relatively stiff bristles (an old toothbrush can work) and a little Simple Green; pour a bit right onto the brush. Scrub out the rubber valve "slot" and outlet. Close the blade part way (open and close the blade to get to as much as possible) and scrub the leading edge, top and bottom, as far as you can and the brush can reach; a shop rag works well for the areas that the brush can't get to. In any event reach around to get the back side of that blade as best as you can. After the blade and the slot are cleaned, rinse and dry off with a shop rag.
- Once cleaned, you can lubricate the mechanism. Although the Lazy Daze manual recommends the use of Vaseline, most folks advise against it, saying that it attracts dirt and gunks up. Silicone spray seems to the lubricant of choice. You can also put a few drops of lubricant on the valve stem. [I have used Vaseline since KoKo was born. I have no negatives to say about it. And do coat the stem a little]
- To make lubricating a little easier, you can drill a small hole just above the handle into which the lubricant spray tube will fit. When not in use, put a small screw in the hole to seal it.
- One fellow went so far as to install a zerk fitting through which he does the lubricating.
Replacing Valve Assembly
So all your efforts have failed and you find yourself with the task of replacing the valve assembly.
1. Make sure you have a new valve (available at any RV store). When replacing the valve, be sure to get the metal handle model and not the plastic one.
2. Drain both tanks. Be sure to flush the tanks thoroughly; it will make for a cleaner job.
3. Remove the four bolts/nuts holding the old valve to be replaced.
4. Remove the old valve.
5. Clean the mounting surfaces thoroughly.
6. Lubricate the mounting surfaces with Vaseline, silicone lubricant or Gly (a clear grease available at Marine Stores).
7. Install the new valve in place and re-insert the bolts and nuts after lubricating them. You might consider replacing the bolts with stainless steel ones, to prevent rust and to make future removal easier.
8. Tighten the nuts gradually and equally so as not to warp the valve seating.
9. Put water in the tank and checks for leaks.
10. No leaks? You're done! Wash your hands and have a cool-one.
Contributors: Joan, Jim C, Joe Hamm, Walt Williams, WxToad
Return to FAQ Index
Routine Maintenance
The most common problem is that the slide valves become harder to operate. In extreme cases, the handle has been know to pull completely off. To prevent this, a little lubrication will be a big help. Before lubricating, a good cleaning of the valves is recommended. Naturally you want to have dumped and flushed your tanks before doing this.
- Use a small brush with relatively stiff bristles (an old toothbrush can work) and a little Simple Green; pour a bit right onto the brush. Scrub out the rubber valve "slot" and outlet. Close the blade part way (open and close the blade to get to as much as possible) and scrub the leading edge, top and bottom, as far as you can and the brush can reach; a shop rag works well for the areas that the brush can't get to. In any event reach around to get the back side of that blade as best as you can. After the blade and the slot are cleaned, rinse and dry off with a shop rag.
- Once cleaned, you can lubricate the mechanism. Although the Lazy Daze manual recommends the use of Vaseline, most folks advise against it, saying that it attracts dirt and gunks up. Silicone spray seems to the lubricant of choice. You can also put a few drops of lubricant on the valve stem. [I have used Vaseline since KoKo was born. I have no negatives to say about it. And do coat the stem a little]
- To make lubricating a little easier, you can drill a small hole just above the handle into which the lubricant spray tube will fit. When not in use, put a small screw in the hole to seal it.
- One fellow went so far as to install a zerk fitting through which he does the lubricating.
Replacing Valve Assembly
So all your efforts have failed and you find yourself with the task of replacing the valve assembly.
1. Make sure you have a new valve (available at any RV store). When replacing the valve, be sure to get the metal handle model and not the plastic one.
2. Drain both tanks. Be sure to flush the tanks thoroughly; it will make for a cleaner job.
3. Remove the four bolts/nuts holding the old valve to be replaced.
4. Remove the old valve.
5. Clean the mounting surfaces thoroughly.
6. Lubricate the mounting surfaces with Vaseline, silicone lubricant or Gly (a clear grease available at Marine Stores).
7. Install the new valve in place and re-insert the bolts and nuts after lubricating them. You might consider replacing the bolts with stainless steel ones, to prevent rust and to make future removal easier.
8. Tighten the nuts gradually and equally so as not to warp the valve seating.
9. Put water in the tank and checks for leaks.
10. No leaks? You're done! Wash your hands and have a cool-one.
Contributors: Joan, Jim C, Joe Hamm, Walt Williams, WxToad
Return to FAQ Index
Monday, January 24, 2011
Water Pumps
For many years Lazy Daze installed the Shurflo Whisper King pump in its coaches. The Whisper King was a fairly dependable pump, although a bit noisy and subject to the pulsing that comes with most pumps.
In 1994 Lazy Daze switched to the new Shurflo Extreme 5.7 Smart Sensor pump. Designed with a circuit board, microprocessor and pressure sensor, these pumps used the latest cutting edge technology to maximize flow and pressure while delivering "Just Like Home" flow. Although very quiet and good at providing a steady flow at most any rate, they turned out to be very unreliable with many failures. Some owners went through several swap-outs of their pump.
After experiencing many failures with the original design of the Extreme pump, Shurflo re-engineered the pump, replacing the original pressure-sensing membrane with a pressure switch. This pump was supposed to be more reliable, but it also had a little quirk of a slight pause shortly after a faucet was opened.
In 2009 Shurflo introduced the Revolution 4008 pump, a replacement for the old Whisper King, and a much simpler, and thus hopefully more reliable pump. In 2010 LD began installing the Revolution in its motorhomes. The Revolution uses a by-pass function to smooth out the flow of water. The by-pass is a spring loaded diaphragm that opens up allowing water from the discharge side back to the inlet side. The by-pass is set to begin opening at about 40 PSI and creating full by-pass at about 62 PSI. The pressure switch on the pump is set to shut off at 55 PSI. The pump operates normally up to 40 PSI, where a spring loaded by-pass valve opens, allowing flow back from the output side to the input side, providing smooth, steady flow with virtually no cycling, all the way down to a trickle. As a faucet is opened back up, the pressure will drop, the by-pass will close and full flow is obtained.
To their credit, Shurflo has been good about honoring its warranty on the Extreme pump, and if an owner was ready to give up on that model, Shurflo would replace it with two Revolution pumps, since the price was about half that of the Extreme. That gives owners the bonus of having a spare pump in case its needed, although the Revolution seems to be much more reliable than the Extreme.
Replacement Pumps
- One LD'er replaced the original Whisper King with a Flojet Sensor VSD. It worked fine but was a bit noisy when either starting up or when using a lot of water. The VSD pump lasted less than a year before it developed a leak in the pump diaphragm. It was replaced under warranty and the new one has been working since. I cannot say that I'm happy with it. The Pressure sensor is insensitive. When opening a faucet, the pressure noticeably drops and then the pump starts and revs up to full speed for a moment and then slows down, making a big racket for a couple of seconds. I have tried to quiet it by adding flexible hoses, packing it in foam rubber it and have even tried using an accumulator. Nothing has made it quiet.
- Another says: When the Revolution fails I will replace it with a Flojet Quad. Model 04325143A. This is a fixed speed pump with a flow rate of 4.5 gallons per minute and draws 6 amps.
Trouble-Shooting
Pump continues to run when faucet shut off
- In our 95 23 1/2 FL when we turned off the faucets the pump continued to run, though more quietly than normal. It seemed to me that the pressure didn't build up enough to cause the pump to turn off. I checked the pump closely and found a slight leak between the motor housing and the diaphragms. The Shurflo people said one of the diaphragms had developed a leak. Ours was the Whisper King model. I ordered a replacement part, and that corrected the problem.
Noisy Pump
- The pump started making a heck of a racket. A call to the Mother Ship made me understand that it was most likely air in the lines. I was told by Vince to turn on the pump, open two faucets at a time and let it run for a minute or two. Then open two other faucets and again let it run a while. The idea is to purge all of the air from the system so all of the outlets (faucets) must be bled free of air, including the toilet and outside shower if you have one. Once that is complete, go around and open the pressure relief valve on the water heater until all water stops flowing, then snap the valve shut again. This procedure worked so well that I hardly know my pump is running now.
- As to the noise, I'd read that it is important to have 2-3 feet of flexible tubing into and out of the pump and, ideally, no right angle bends in those sections. Shurflo also suggests that the flexible output line have a 360 degree loop in it. So I bought Shurflo's Silencing Kit (about $16 at CW) and installed it yesterday.
- The standard LD installation of my original Whisper King had short straight sections of flexible tubing running from and to the rigid PEX plumbing that runs throughout the motorhome, both terminating in 90 degree fittings at the pump. I didn't change those when I installed my first 5.7 Extreme pump. So when installing the Silencing Kit, I removed those and the 90 degree fittings and installed the two flexible tubes from the Silencing Kit in their place, the output tube with a 360 degree loop as suggested by Shurflo, and placed new 1/2 inch pipe insulation around the tubing at critical points to protect against vibration. This seems to have greatly improved the noise situation. Now, when the pump runs it is easy to see the pulsing and vibration in the output line cause by the pump's operation. But the loop of flexible tubing absorbs most of that without transmitting it to the rigid PEX plumbing.
Extreme model cycles too often
- The newer Extreme pumps with the pressure switch have an adjustment screw which is used to adjust the sensitivity of the pressure switch. I was told to proceed as follows.
First, access the pump and locate the adjustment screw. The new version has five screws in the plate covering the pressure switch. The old pressure sensor version had just four screws. Otherwise the pumps look the same. The adjustment screw on the new versions is in the center, surrounded by the other four.
Then turn on a single faucet to a moderate flow. If the flow and the pump speed are steady no adjustment is needed. But if the pump cycles or speeds up and slows down significantly you should turn the screw clockwise until the pump runs at a steady speed with a moderate flow from one faucet.
If the pump is not activating or has an excessive delay in activating then turn the screw counter-clockwise. What you're seeking is a steady pump speed with little or no cycling when the demand is just a moderate flow from one faucet.
Extreme model leaks
************
Shurflo says that the 5.7 creates about 65 psi in the system, but this can build to over 100psi when the water in the water heater is heated without any pressure relief. That can damage the pump and is why they recommend a check valve. Oddly, their instructions supplied with the pump say nothing about this. So, I installed a brass check valve just downstream of the pump. The check valve allows water to flow downstream unimpeded from the pump into the coach plumbing system to all the fixtures. But it prevents water downstream that may be under higher pressure from either the city water supply or water expanding when it is heated from returning to the pump. Since installing the check valve my pump has worked well.
************
- I had a pump that leaked in the morning when I turned on the water heater. I installed a water pressure meter to allow me to monitor what was happening in the system. When I turned on the heater, system pressure would start at 80 psi, and climb to 150, when leaking would start.
- I obtained and installed a small accumulator tank in my system. I charged it to 80 psi, the resting pressure of my system. Thus, unless the pressure climbed above 80 psi, the tank would be invisible to the pump. This morning, after sitting overnight with no leaks, the system looked ready for the next step. I turned on the heater, with system pressure at 80 psi. So far, I have no leaks and my system pressure maxed out at 105 psi. Remember, this is with the pump that was leaking. Here is what I have provisionally determined and/or concluded:
-- First, Shurflo recommends against the use of an accumulator tank OR AIR IN THE SYSTEM!
-- Second, Atwood requires an air pocket in the heater, thus introducing air into the system, in contravention of Shurflo instructions.
-- Third, when water is heated, it expands. In a closed system such as our units, there is no place for the expansion to occur except in the air space in the heater. I do not see how the Shurflo requirements can work without pressure surges.
-- Fourth, I believe my tests show that the air space in the heater is inadequate to accommodate water expansion. More air space is needed.
-- Fifth, the only option for the expanding water in our systems as designed and installed is to force itself out through the weakest link in the system. This SHOULD be the pressure relief valve. In my case, it was first, the under-sink faucet connections and after that was tightened, it was the pump.
-- Finally, the accumulator tank I installed provides some expansion space when pressure climbs above 80 psi. The result seems to be a stable, non-leaking system.
- For more on accumulator tanks, see the Accumulator Tanks FAQ.
Revolution cycles too much
There is a center adjustment screw on the pump. Shurflo suggests turning the center allen screw clockwise in 1/8 increments until the problem resolves. The limit to making that adjustment, again according to them, is when you have gone too far the pump won't shut off. They say the ideal operation would be that when you shut off the water the pump stops in 1/4 second.
On the plus side, you may also see water pressure increased noticeably pretty much from the first adjustment.
Pump won't pump - only hums
- It might just be that the pump has gotten air into it and has lost "prime". I've had a case once or twice when the pump would just hum and not pump water. Try turning the pump off and opening a faucet and let it sit for awhile and then turning the pump back on. You could also try hooking up to a city water connection and make sure you have water in your lines. This might help to get water into the pump and re-prime it.
- There is no way to remove your water pump without draining your fresh water tank first. Installing a valve between the tank and the pump will solve that problem. And while you're at it, adding a valve on the output side of the pump as well gives you the ability to use city water with a faulty, leaking pump. I bought two plastic valves that would work on the type of tubing present. They had 3/4" threaded connections to which I attached 1/2" barb to 3/4" threaded nylon adapters. I connected the valves in line on the inflow and outflow hoses, shut both off, and re-pressurized the system. With this set-up I can completely remove the pump while my shore water supply is under pressure. Here's how to do it:
1) Purchase two plastic shut-off valves with 3/4" threaded female fittings.
2) Purchase 4 nylon adapters, 1/2" hose barb male to 3/4" threaded male.
3) Purchase 4 hose clamps big enough to go over the hoses.
4) If you don't have teflon tape, get some.
5) Using teflon tape on the threads, connect two of the adapters to the ends of each of the valves.
6) Turn off your pump, open a faucet and drain your fresh water tank.
7) The hoses attach to the Extreme pump with snap-on and snap-off plastic clips. Put a towel under the pump and remove the plastic clips. You should need no tools for this.
8) Use a magic marker to note where you want the valves to be.
9) Pull off the nearest hose.
10) Cut the hose at the magic marker mark, put the hose clamps onto the hose ends, push the barbs fully into the hoses, and place and tighten the hose clamps.
11) Replace the hose fitting on the pump and re-attach the plastic clip. Note that the narrower opening on the clip should face toward the hose and the wider opening toward the pump. If necessary to rotate the valve position, loosen the hose clamps by the valve, turn the valve to the desired position and re-tighten the clamps.
12) Repeat steps 9-11 with the farther hose.
13) Open both valves.
14) Refill your fresh water tank, purge air from the system and turn the pump on to check for leaks.
While at it, you might consider replacing the LD supplied water supply line from the fresh water tank to the water pump with stainless steel braided hose that can be purchased at most hardware or home improvement stores. Get a long braided hose that you can form in a loop between the tank and the pump so that there none of the 90 degree bends that were in the LD supplied line. It's also easier to use teflon paste instead of teflon tape on the threaded fitting on the water tank; it is much easier to get the paste on the threads than the tape.
******************
- Make replacing your Extreme easier: Install four studs into the coach floor where the pump mounts, in place of the screws normally used to mount the pump. The pump now anchors to the studs with four wing nuts and washers. You can also install male/female plug/receptacles (like you'd use when making an extension cord) where the pump connects to the power supply. This makes swapping pumps quick and easy.
*****************
- The quick connect fittings on the Shurflo 5.7 pump are nice but can be tricky.
-- First, you need to be absolutely sure that the fitting on the end of the line is all the way into the socket on the pump. You can still press the C-shaped lock ring into place even if the line is not fully seated, but you will not get a secure result.
-- Second, those C-shaped lock rings are "sided." One side is labeled "Fitting." You need to be sure that side is facing away from the pump.
-- Then once the lock rings are on you need to try to pull them off to be sure they are locked.
Contributors: Les Bowers, Steve S., Terry, Larry Wade, Ken Fears, Art, Don Malpas, WxToad, Steve
Revised 19 Aug 11
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