Water is leaking from someplace, but where?
Take it a step at a time.
1) Wrap a paper towel around the point where the flush hose attaches to the back of the toilet bowl. Give it a few cycles, then check for moisture. Be sure you include the hose connections, as a loose connection there would absolutely do what you describe.
2) Repeat, wrapping the paper towel around the flush valve at the base of the treadle, where the hoses connect to the valve as well as below the valve.
3) Open the trim cover at the base of the bowl and remove it. Make a “snake” about 24” long out of paper towels and wrap around the TOP of the split ring and band clamp assembly. Test there.
4) Repeat 3, at the BOTTOM of the split ring and band clamp assembly.
That covers all the possibilities for any kind of a connection leak with any possible pressure. So, let’s check the hoses.
1) Wrap a paper towel around the low point on each of the hoses connecting to the toilet - the PEX in feed, the line out to the vacuum breaker at the back of the bowl, and the line to the hand spray unit.
2) Wrap a paper towel around the treadle axle penetration of the black pedestal base.
3) Wrap a paper towel around the base of the pedestal where it is bolted down to the seal.
That covers the toilet system. Next, pull the angled pieces of paneling at the back of the toilet (Phillips head screws) and remove them. There are a number of hoses and connections back there. Check them all the same way. It could be leaking there and seeping out to behind the toilet.
The shelving under the toilet counter top sits on top of linoleum. A leak between the bathroom stuff and in my midbath, the under counter kitchen area could have a leak that is traveling to the area behind the toilet. So, use a snake of toweling and devise some way to hold it pressed against the floor next to that cabinet.
You can shorten the time for testing by doing a bunch of these at the same time. Just don’t let one interfere with another setup. When wrapping a paper towel around something, scotch tape or quick ties are your friends for keeping it in place.
When you are done, your toilet is likely to resemble a volunteer victim at a Brownie first aid class… ;-)
Hmm, water escaping where the toilet base meets the floor…
There is a hard plastic mount on the floor that connects to the sewer pipe. That mount might be cracked. Between that mount and the base there is a relatively soft floor flange. It that became torn somehow, that could leak. However, there is nothing but air behind those pieces, so I don’t see water escaping there. The base itself has a number of sections intended to stiffen the base without adding much weight. A leaking upper seal can allow standing water in the bowl to leak out to those sections. Andy and I have both seen those spaced filled with water. I can see that area overflowing, leaking down the side of the base onto the floor. I can also see a base with a hole or a crack allowing those spaces to leak onto the floor.
About a month ago, I replaced the two upper seals. Two days ago, the spring cartridge broke, necessitating replacement. Dreading the possibility of dropping the flush ball into the black tank, I decided to remove the base to do the repair. I pulled out the toilet and set it in the shower. While there were some salt deposits on the bottom, they cleaned off easily with a brush, not yet having hardened. I looked at the seals, which seemed to be in good shape. They were only a month old and looked fine so I cleaned them and set them aside to re-use them. Big mistake...
I then removed the water valve, unbolted the base, and put it in a bucket of HOT soapy water to soak a bit before cleaning. While that was happening, I cleaned up the mounting flange in the floor, blessing LD for using caulk on the mounting bolts and under the floor flange.
Shortening this tale, I cleaned up the base, removed the rotor shaft and flush ball, prepped and installed the new shaft and rotor ball, re-assembled the flush pedal, the spring cartridge and the water valve, then I waxed the surface of the new flush ball and put the seals from a month ago back on. I installed the toilet, inserted the vacuum breaker, put on the split ring clamps and tightened the band clamp.
I then used the flush pedal, adding water to the bowl. All looked fine and I was congratulating myself, until I noticed that the water was flowing out of the bowl. The old seals, that I re-used, were leaking, and the water was emerging from the seam between the toilet bowl and the plastic base.
AND - I was experiencing some abdominal cramping. I did not have a lot of time to deal with this.
Feeling some urgency, I pulled out the vacuum breaker, loosened the band clamp, removed the split rings, moved the toilet to the shower, and found that the interface between the toilet base and the upper seal had not sealed. Water had flowed across the top of the seal, filled the flanges in the base and overflowed to the floor area around the base.
I did some quick mopping up, grabbed a new set of seals, installed them, installed the toilet and vacuum breaker, put on the split rings and band clamp, and snugged it all down. I added some water, and it held.
I had once claimed that, but for cleaning, I could probably change the seals in 20 minutes. It actually took me 15 minutes, and, had it taken 20, that would have been 2 minutes too late.
So, here is what i think. You re-used your upper seals, right? I have learned that that does not work. They may look good, but unless they will lie perfectly flat on a flat surface, they are likely to leak. Second, when you changed the seals, did you remove all encrustation and salt formations from the underside of the toilet bowl? If not, that irregularity can cause a leak.
From your pics, I think you have everything lined up properly. I suspect that when you flush the toilet, the old seals are allowing water to escape to the flanged area in the base, thence out through the seam between the base and the bowl. With the flush pedal released, the flush ball pushes up against the seals and they make enough contact to stop that flow, so the water stays in the bowl.
My recommendation is to remove the toilet again, make sure the bottom of the toilet is free of any deposits or encrustation ( I have had to use a file at times to remove them), then re-assemble with new seals.
Showing posts with label toilet. Show all posts
Showing posts with label toilet. Show all posts
Thursday, May 30, 2019
Tuesday, October 18, 2016
Leaking Toilet Bowls
My Approach to Leaking Toilet Bowls
Bill Atkins posted a good article on toilet bowl leaking (http://lazydazearticles.blogspot.com/2009/08/toilet-bowl-seal-replacement.html), but included dealing with problems with the flush mechanism and the base. This article takes on a simpler task - water leaking out of the bowl, but not onto the floor, meaning you need to replace the upper seals. Parts of this article are purely my own thing, and I have not found anything published to support my approach. They work for me, and I am sharing my process with you. I am not saying that I recommend that you do the same. I will flag those parts in bold, so you can decide if you want to try what I do. It is written with the assumption that you have never, or rarely, dealt with this. Maybe you are like me my first time, dreading and fearful of the task. I have provided as much detail as I could, to help you through a task that really is pretty simple.
Few people I have talked with do what I do. Most have repeat leakage without knowing why. It is like a good paint job - it is mostly in the surface prep.
If water does not remain in your toilet bowl, you have a leak - somewhere. It can be in three and only three places. Let’s start by giving names to the parts for discussion. These may not be “by the book” names but they work for me.
The bowl - This is the toilet itself, the porcelain part with a hole in the bottom and a rim around the top.
The flush pedal - This is the pedal to the left of the bowl as you face it.
The flush nozzle - This is the connection to the back of the bowl that feeds water into the bowl’s rim to rinse the bowl.
The flush spray - This is the hand held spray used to help rinse the bowl.
The flush dome - This is the curved plastic part that closes the hole at the bottom of the bowl, and opens when you press the flush pedal down.
The upper seals - These are the two neoprene gaskets whose edges can be seen between the bowl and the flush dome. There are two - a thick upper seal and a thin lower seal.
The pedestal cover - This is the plastic part that splits near the axle of the flush pedal and covers the black pedestal base, the split ring and the band clamp.
The split ring or half clamp - This is a two piece ring with a V-shaped inner surface that pulls the bowl and the pedestal base together.
The band clamp - This is a clamp that, when tightened, pulls the two pieces of the split ring together, locking the bowl to the pedestal base.
The plastic pedestal base - This is the black plastic base on which the bowl sits.
I think that covers the parts. Let’s talk about the possibilities for leaking. For water to get out of the bowl, there are only three possibilities. The water can seep between the bowl and the thick upper seal, eventually getting to the interior flanges that stiffen the plastic pedestal base. This water can be the source of odors, as there is a slight ability for air to escape past the outer edge of the plastic pedestal base. Water can also seep between the thick upper seal and the thin lower seal, though unlikely, again getting to the flange area in the plastic pedestal base. Finally, water can seep past the thin lower seal and the flush dome, dripping into the black tank. Just like stalactites forming in a cave, moisture containing calcium from a hard water source and urine salts from us, sitting on the dome below the seals and evaporating, leaves behind minerals. As the deposits grow, the seal becomes worse and worse.
Why does a leak happen? If you just changed the seals and it leaks, either the mating surfaces were not clean, the seals were not aligned properly, or the half clamps were not tightened sufficiently. If the seals have been in place for a while and they slowly begin to leak, foreign matter is compromising the seals, either between the bowl and the thick upper seal, between the two seals, or between the thin lower seal and the flush dome. A little chemistry - once a crystal or mineral deposit begins to form, it attracts more material to it. Deposits will grow, even between well-seated surfaces. This is what causes the seals to fail. There is one more possibility - the flush dome might have shifted out of alignment, preventing a seal, but that is beyond this article. See Bill’s article for that condition.
The most likely scenario is foreign matter accumulation. That can happen in several ways. Liquid waste contains minerals and salts. Crystallization and accumulation over time can cause a leak. When it happens, it is time to change the seals. That is what the remainder of this article focuses on.
Before starting, you will need new seals, white vinegar, an aluminum pan large enough for the bowl to sit in it with vinegar in the pan, dry silicone lube spray, vaseline, a garbage bag, a socket set with a 5/16” socket and an extension, a straight blade screwdriver, an old toothbrush, a scrub brush, a spray cleaner such as Fantastic or 409, Pledge spray wax or similar, lots of paper towels, and if you can find one, a bulb syringe with a small tip. You will want rubber or latex gloves. My bowl seal kit is #385311462. Check your toilet model to be sure you have the right seals.
First, turn off the water, and flush until there is no more water in the bowl.
Close windows and doors, making the RV as air tight as possible. Open the bathroom vent slightly and switch the fan OFF. Open the other vent and switch the fan to high, with the fan set so it is pulling air IN, not out. This will create a positive pressure in the RV so odors from the open tank are pushed down into the tank, giving you an odor-free work environment.
Remove the toilet seat and seat back. There are screws by the seat hinges that hold them in place. With a flat blade screwdriver, pop the covers up to access the screw heads and reach behind the bowl to hold the screw bases. Unscrew the screws, and set the pieces aside.
The pedestal cover splits at the flush mechanism at the base of the flush pedal. You may find you need to remove the trim on the flush pedal to do this, but I can usually get the pedestal cover off with a little fussing and wiggling. Pressing the lower edge of the cover at the seam behind the flush mechanism, front side right at the bottom with the screwdriver usually does it for me. Remove the pedestal cover and set it aside for cleaning if there is any sign of staining or dried urine. If you have ever had male kids visit, I can almost guarantee there will be some.
Feel the band clamp at the back of the bowl. There is a nut there. With the socket on the extension and ratchet, loosen the nut until the band clamp can be slid down off the half clamp or split ring. Remove both parts of the half clamp. As with the pedestal cover, look for staining or deposits and if present, clean before re-assembly.
The bowl is now loose, so be careful not to push it off the base or drop it.
Reach behind the bowl and feel the flush nozzle where it attaches to the bowl. This is a rubber or soft plastic friction connection. You need to remove the nozzle. it pulls straight out, but is not easy. I do it by tilting the bowl toward me to get more room, and by twisting the nozzle in a rotating fashion as I am pulling it out of the hole in which it is seated.
Put the aluminum pan in the shower. Lift the bowl off the base and put it in the pan. Be careful to have a good hold so you do not drop the bowl. Using a funnel, tip the bowl toward the front and pour a substantial amount of vinegar into the hole at the back where the nozzle connected. Your objective here is to first douse the ring area, which distributes rinse water around the bowl, with vinegar, then to have enough vinegar in the bottom of the pan so any crystallized salts on the bottom of the bowl have time to soften for removal. If you just pour vinegar into the pan, it will deal with the base of the bowl, but any mold in the ring will not be touched.
OK, back to the toilet base. You are now looking at the two seals sitting above the flush dome. There is a notch in the edge of the seals. Note how the notch is positioned to fit on the plastic pedestal base, so the replacement seals will go in the right way. Remove the two seals and drop them in the trash bag. You are now looking at the flush dome. Odds are, the surface will have an accumulation of salts. Dribble some vinegar on the flush dome. Roll up some paper towels, drench them in vinegar, and form a ring on the flush dome with them to hold vinegar in contact with the salts. Let it sit to soften any deposits. Occasionally, dribble some more vinegar on the dome.
While the vinegar is doing its job, let’s deal with the flange area in the plastic pedestal base. Odds are, it will have liquid partially or fully filling the spaces between the flanges. Remove the liquid. I use a bulb syringe, but it can be blotted up with paper towels and patience, by rolling the paper towels into a shaft and sticking the end into the flange so the liquid is soaked up.
Clean any stuff that you set aside for cleaning. You CAN turn the water back on and use the shower to do this. Just be careful not to press down the flush pedal if you do so. Get those parts squeaky clean and dry.
OK, turn the bowl upside down. Look at the base around the hole where the bowl will rest on the seals. Most likely, you will see a ring of yellowish deposits. Scraping with the side of the screwdriver will usually clean those deposits. Once the deposits are removed, feel the surface. If you feel ANY roughness, you need to get this smooth. My first time doing this was after three years of fulltiming, and there was a lot of accumulation of very hard material there. I needed to use a file, then sandpaper, to get rid of the salt encrustation. (This is the first of the things that I do. If you try it, be very careful not to damage the porcelain, and just remove the salts. It took some patience that first time, but has been simple since then.) You want to get rid of every salt or mineral present, as any remaining will attract more salts, speeding the regrowing of the crystals. After that first, very hard deposit, my future seal changes, done annually, do not need real aggressive cleaning. I scrape with the side of the screwdriver, popping the hard stuff off, then I scrub any remainder. An old toothbrush (not Dorothy’s, Don) with vinegar usually does the trick. When all salts have been removed, I add more vinegar to the inside of the rim and scrub with a scrub brush to get the underside of the rim clean. I then rinse the bowl thoroughly with hot water from the shower, scrub all surfaces in the bowl with a scrub brush and spray cleaner, and rinse again. I fold up and discard the aluminum pan, leaving the bowl upside down on a number of paper towels to protect the shower base from scratching. I dry the base of the bowl where it will mate with the thick upper seal.
Now it is time to clean the flush dome. Hopefully, vinegar and the toothbrush will be enough. I have encountered quite hard deposits that I remove by VERY careful scraping with the side of a flat blade screwdriver, finishing with a very fine sandpaper until the flush dome is smooth and clean. (This is the second of the things I do that is not supported. If you slip and scratch the flush dome, you will have to replace it.) The best way is to soak with vinegar to soften deposits, then scrape with a material such as wood or plastic that will not damage the flush dome, then soak and scrape again, until all deposits are gone.
With the spray cleaner and paper towels, clean the flush dome thoroughly and rinse, then dry it. Now, give it several coats of Pledge spray wax. Your objective is to wind up with a thoroughly smooth, clean flush dome with a waxed surface that will seal well to the thin lower seal.
I then spray the underside of the thin lower seal with dry silicone lube (my own idea) and position it on the plastic pedestal base. The intent of the lube is to promote smooth sliding of the flush dome against the seal.
Next, I rub a very thin film of vaseline on the upper surface of the thin lower seal and the lower surface of the thick upper seal. I do NOT gob it on, but apply just enough to get a shiny surface. This promotes a very good seal between the two neoprene surfaces. (Again, this is my own idea, not supported. Vaseline, like all petroleum products, degrades neoprene rubber. None of the vaseline uses are necessary for re-assembly. My own opinion is that a thin film improves the seal and reduces water adhesion so rinsing is more thorough.) Mate the two seals, making sure they are aligned properly.
Now it is time to place the bowl on the upper seal. First, turn the water off and drain the line so if you bump the flush pedal, you won’t spray the room. (I do a thin film of vaseline on the top of the thick upper seal and on the dried bottom of the bowl where it contacts the seal. Again, this is my own thing, but the ONLY times I have found the flange area dry or nearly so on seal changing is when I have previously done this. Also, cleaning the bottom of the bowl got much easier after I began using a thin film of vaseline there.) Place the bowl on the seals in the approximate position. Re-insert the nozzle in the back of the bowl, seating it fully. Now position the bowl carefully. You have it right when, if you stand over the bowl and look straight down, you see a uniform black ring from the seals in the hole.
Position the split ring half clamps in place, with the front, with the two tabs, together and the rear having a gap. Place the band clamp over the split ring to hold it in place. This may take a bit of jiggling and juggling to get the split ring and the band clamp in place. Take the time to get it right. The two parts of the split ring should be straddling the bottom of the bowl and the top of the plastic pedestal base, with the split ring joined in the front, apart at the back, and the band clamp sitting evenly in the groove on the split ring all the way around. (Before I do this, I spray the bowl base and the inside of the split ring pieces with dry silicone lube. As you tighten the band clamp, the split ring will pull the pedestal base and the bowl together. The surfaces need to slide on the split ring for this to happen. I find the dry lube to help this process, but support for this cannot be found anywhere.) Make sure the band clamp nut is at the back of the bowl, else the pedestal cover will not fit in place. Tighten the band clamp until the split rings are in place and the band clamp is snug but not yet tight. Check the alignment of the bowl again and if necessary tweak its position until it is just right.
Now it is time to tighten the band clamp. You need to do this carefully. Go too tight, and you can crack the bowl. Too loose, and the bowl will shift and move with use, causing leaks. Here is how I do it. First, I get rid of the ratchet and use a nut driver (like a screwdriver but with an end that allows the attachment of a socket). If you do not have a nut driver and are using the ratchet, be gentle with that ratchet handle. Don’t pull too hard. Snug up the clamp until the resistance to tightening is building noticeably. Re-assemble the toilet seat and seat back. Check the bowl alignment. Now, sit on the bowl and wiggle. This will compress the seals and gain some slack in the band clamp. Again, tighten until resistance builds. Sit. Wiggle. Tighten. Repeat until you are no longer creating slack by wiggling.
Finally, replace the pedestal cover. Hold it so the bulge is at the top and facing away from you. Slide it in place beginning on the right, maneuvering it around the back, over the nut, then rotating the edge forward until it seats behind the flush mechanism. Now rotate the other side around to meet the seam and snap the two edges in place. It may take a bit of wiggling of the cover to get the two edges to snap together.
You are done.
You may notice, however, after a few weeks of use, that the bowl wiggles a bit. This sometimes happens as the seals continue to compress and the split ring adjusts itself over the bowl and base. It that occurs, simply tighten the band clamp a bit more.
So, how much time does this take? Well, I am used to it. Aside from time soaking in vinegar and cleaning, it takes me about 15 to 20 minutes to dis-assemble and re-assemble. Changing the seals regularly means I don’t need a lot of time soaking and cleaning, but my last change took about 2 hours, mostly sitting and waiting for vinegar to do its job.
Let’s close with maintenance. Periodically, get all the water out of the bowl that you can, add about a half inch of white vinegar, and let it sit for a while. Then, press the flush pedal to open the flush dome and scrub the edges with a stiff brush, removing all the sediment you can. Do another vinegar soak and scrub, then a thorough rinse with the flush spray. I do that once a month.
Ken Fears - October, 2016
Monday, April 4, 2016
Replacing The Toilet Wash Out Hose
This is for the die hard DIY group.
I have just completed a chore I have been putting off for over a year - replacing the toilet wash out. The squirter mechanism was on it’s last leg, sometimes hanging up and not turning off the water. The cheap plastic OEM squirter was one piece with the hose, so both had the replaced.
If your bowl seal shows signs of wear, you may as well order the grossly over-priced bowl seal and replace both at the same time.
First, turn off the water.
To remove the hose from the supply line, you first have to remove the bowl. That’s fun. On our 2007 Sealand, there is a skirt that has to be removed and also a plastic cover over the foot flush pedal. Then you will see a metal clamp below the bowl that goes all the way around the bowl. The nut to loosen the clamp is in the back - so inconvenient. Loosen the clamp until the plastic parts it is seated on can be removed. Note well the orientation of these parts. They have to go back on the same way.
Raise the bowl straight up so as not to move the bowl seal. Set the bowl aside and note well, the orientation of the bowl seal. Especially the hole in the seal.
Loosen the clamp on the wash hose supply line and remove it. Assemble the new parts and put a little Vaseline on the new supply hose, push it on and secure it.
Now the fun part comes - getting the bowl secured. If you have never done it, I just can not tell you how much fun it will be in the confined quarters. Ensure the seal is in the correct position and put the bowl back down without disturbing the position of the seal. Tighten the clamp around the bowl with a nut driver hand tight. Do not use a wrench, as you may crack the plastic parts under the clamp. Know also that it needs to be tight enough so that it does not come apart when you sit on it. This is real important.
Run the water for a few minutes and check for leaks. If none found, replace the skirt and have an adult beverage.
I have just completed a chore I have been putting off for over a year - replacing the toilet wash out. The squirter mechanism was on it’s last leg, sometimes hanging up and not turning off the water. The cheap plastic OEM squirter was one piece with the hose, so both had the replaced.
If your bowl seal shows signs of wear, you may as well order the grossly over-priced bowl seal and replace both at the same time.
First, turn off the water.
To remove the hose from the supply line, you first have to remove the bowl. That’s fun. On our 2007 Sealand, there is a skirt that has to be removed and also a plastic cover over the foot flush pedal. Then you will see a metal clamp below the bowl that goes all the way around the bowl. The nut to loosen the clamp is in the back - so inconvenient. Loosen the clamp until the plastic parts it is seated on can be removed. Note well the orientation of these parts. They have to go back on the same way.
Raise the bowl straight up so as not to move the bowl seal. Set the bowl aside and note well, the orientation of the bowl seal. Especially the hole in the seal.
Loosen the clamp on the wash hose supply line and remove it. Assemble the new parts and put a little Vaseline on the new supply hose, push it on and secure it.
Now the fun part comes - getting the bowl secured. If you have never done it, I just can not tell you how much fun it will be in the confined quarters. Ensure the seal is in the correct position and put the bowl back down without disturbing the position of the seal. Tighten the clamp around the bowl with a nut driver hand tight. Do not use a wrench, as you may crack the plastic parts under the clamp. Know also that it needs to be tight enough so that it does not come apart when you sit on it. This is real important.
Run the water for a few minutes and check for leaks. If none found, replace the skirt and have an adult beverage.
Thursday, July 7, 2011
Toilet Trouble-Shooting
A common complaint with RV toilets is that the seal in the bowl valve often fails to hold water in the bowl. Sometimes with a little preventive maintenance, the onset of this problem can be slowed. Here are some suggestions:
Problem: Bowl doesn't hold water.
Suggestions:
- Periodically dump a small amount of holding tank valve lubricant into the bowel and let it stand. It will lubricate the seal.
- Another suggestion is to pull 3/4 of the bristles out of a toothbrush and brush some silicon grease onto the seal. Obtain the silicon lubricant from ACE hardware. It is in a 1.5 inch dia. plastic container, one inch high for $5.
- Purchase .040 screen spline used to hold the screen in the screened door, cut to length and wedge it between the rubber gasket and the bottom of the bowl. Form it into a circle and place it on top of the existing gasket. You're adding a second, softer gasket.
- First shut off the water pump and hold the toilet's flush (ball) valve open until all the water drains out. Then, with the flush valve closed again, add about a cup of undiluted white vinegar. (The water pump can be turned back on at this point, so you can use the sinks and shower.) After letting the vinegar sit for a couple of hours (replenishing as necessary to keep the valve covered with vinegar), pour in a few tablespoons of baking soda, and scrub the bowl with a toilet brush. The baking soda serves two purposes: first, it's a mild abrasive that helps remove any remaining mineral deposits that the vinegar has loosened; and second, it neutralizes the vinegar's acidity, so that you don't kill off the beneficial bacteria in your tank. Then flush the toilet and repeat the baking soda treatment, until the contents of the bowl no longer foam, at which point you'll know the acidity has been fully neutralized. Give this simple procedure a try before you resort to more drastic measures or call in expensive professional help.
- Read the LD Companion article on Toilet Bowl Seal Replacement.
Problem: Water drips from rinse hose and/or water around toilet base.
- The likely culprit is the vacuum breaker. The part is difficult to get to - it may be just as easy to take the toilet apart and install new parts for the replaceable items, such as the vacuum breaker, toilet seal, flush ball and water valve.
- Getting to the parts, aka removing the toilet: there is a cosmetic fitting on the bottom of the toilet that is held on with a small Phillips-head screw. You must remove this see where the toilet fastens to the floor. The four common places for leaks are the flush valve on the left side of toilet, the vacuum breaker on rear top of toilet (you'll need to remove toilet to get to it), the middle Telfon ball seal valve (top half of toilet must be removed to replace), and the flange base seal where the toilet bolts to the floor.
- For more info on replacing these parts, read this article:
http://www.ehow.com/how_4692928_repair-sealand-marine-rv-toilet.html
Problem: Water won't stop running into bowl when you release the flush/fill pedal.
Solution: Probably the water valve is worn and is getting stuck in the 'on' position. It is a common part and should be available at any RV dealer's Parts Counter.
There isn't enough access room to change the valve in place, so the toilet will need to be removed. Do the installer a favor and make sure the black water tank is empty and has been flushed first. Summer is a miserable time to work on or near open holding tanks;-)
- Removing the pedestal cover: There are two screws on the inside of the "pedal". Remove them and you will have better access to the pedestal cover which snaps off if you have the short base and has one screw for the tall base.
While you're at it, to avoid problem 1 above, it might be a good time to change the bowl seal, if it has been more a than a few years since the last replacement.
Problem: Clogging issues with the Mid-Bath toilet.
Solution: Read the LD Companion article on the Mid-Bath Toilet Problem.
Problem: Can't add water by pulling pedal up.
If you can get down low in front of the toilet and look inside of the plastic cover that is at the rear of the pedal, look for the following. There is a plunger with a plastic mushroom shaped top that activates the water valve below. There is a curved medal rod inside the pedal's shell. When you push down on the pedal, this curved rod should depress the plunger (and yours appears to work in this direction). When you lift the pedal, the same curved rod should also cause the plunger to be depressed. I'd guess the curved rod in your pedal assembly is either bent or broken.
Problem: Have to push pedal down before it can be pulled up.
It's possible that the toilet's spring cartridge is mounted too tightly. To access the two mounting screws, here's what you need to do:
1. Unsnap the plastic shroud on the toilet's base. It's hinged on the right side and snaps together on the left, by the pedal. Shove a screwdriver in there and pry it open--it's pretty sturdy, so you're not likely to break it. (Even if you did, it would be no big deal, since you can reassemble it without snapping that side together and it'll still look OK.)
2. With the shroud out of the way, you can get a Phillips screwdriver in and remove the two screws on the inside of the plastic pedal. They're a bit recessed, but easy to see. A stubby screwdriver works best.
3. Once the screws are out, you can remove the plastic cover plate they hold in place, and then slide off the big plastic pedal cover.
Now, looking from the left, you should be able to see the business end of the water valve assembly. Try loosening the two screws that hold it in place a quarter turn and see whether that solves the problem. If not, back them off another quarter turn and try again.
Also, it doesn't hurt to shoot a little silicone spray at the base of the mushroom-shaped valve actuator--the place where its shaft slides into the valve assembly.
Contributors: Larry Wade, Bill Atkins, Roger Nickey, WxToad, Bob Moore, Ric, Jim C., Art, Andy Baird
Revised: 11 May 2014
Problem: Bowl doesn't hold water.
Suggestions:
- Periodically dump a small amount of holding tank valve lubricant into the bowel and let it stand. It will lubricate the seal.
- Another suggestion is to pull 3/4 of the bristles out of a toothbrush and brush some silicon grease onto the seal. Obtain the silicon lubricant from ACE hardware. It is in a 1.5 inch dia. plastic container, one inch high for $5.
- Purchase .040 screen spline used to hold the screen in the screened door, cut to length and wedge it between the rubber gasket and the bottom of the bowl. Form it into a circle and place it on top of the existing gasket. You're adding a second, softer gasket.
- First shut off the water pump and hold the toilet's flush (ball) valve open until all the water drains out. Then, with the flush valve closed again, add about a cup of undiluted white vinegar. (The water pump can be turned back on at this point, so you can use the sinks and shower.) After letting the vinegar sit for a couple of hours (replenishing as necessary to keep the valve covered with vinegar), pour in a few tablespoons of baking soda, and scrub the bowl with a toilet brush. The baking soda serves two purposes: first, it's a mild abrasive that helps remove any remaining mineral deposits that the vinegar has loosened; and second, it neutralizes the vinegar's acidity, so that you don't kill off the beneficial bacteria in your tank. Then flush the toilet and repeat the baking soda treatment, until the contents of the bowl no longer foam, at which point you'll know the acidity has been fully neutralized. Give this simple procedure a try before you resort to more drastic measures or call in expensive professional help.
- Read the LD Companion article on Toilet Bowl Seal Replacement.
Problem: Water drips from rinse hose and/or water around toilet base.
- The likely culprit is the vacuum breaker. The part is difficult to get to - it may be just as easy to take the toilet apart and install new parts for the replaceable items, such as the vacuum breaker, toilet seal, flush ball and water valve.
- Getting to the parts, aka removing the toilet: there is a cosmetic fitting on the bottom of the toilet that is held on with a small Phillips-head screw. You must remove this see where the toilet fastens to the floor. The four common places for leaks are the flush valve on the left side of toilet, the vacuum breaker on rear top of toilet (you'll need to remove toilet to get to it), the middle Telfon ball seal valve (top half of toilet must be removed to replace), and the flange base seal where the toilet bolts to the floor.
- For more info on replacing these parts, read this article:
http://www.ehow.com/how_4692928_repair-sealand-marine-rv-toilet.html
Problem: Water won't stop running into bowl when you release the flush/fill pedal.
Solution: Probably the water valve is worn and is getting stuck in the 'on' position. It is a common part and should be available at any RV dealer's Parts Counter.
There isn't enough access room to change the valve in place, so the toilet will need to be removed. Do the installer a favor and make sure the black water tank is empty and has been flushed first. Summer is a miserable time to work on or near open holding tanks;-)
- Removing the pedestal cover: There are two screws on the inside of the "pedal". Remove them and you will have better access to the pedestal cover which snaps off if you have the short base and has one screw for the tall base.
While you're at it, to avoid problem 1 above, it might be a good time to change the bowl seal, if it has been more a than a few years since the last replacement.
Problem: Clogging issues with the Mid-Bath toilet.
Solution: Read the LD Companion article on the Mid-Bath Toilet Problem.
Problem: Can't add water by pulling pedal up.
If you can get down low in front of the toilet and look inside of the plastic cover that is at the rear of the pedal, look for the following. There is a plunger with a plastic mushroom shaped top that activates the water valve below. There is a curved medal rod inside the pedal's shell. When you push down on the pedal, this curved rod should depress the plunger (and yours appears to work in this direction). When you lift the pedal, the same curved rod should also cause the plunger to be depressed. I'd guess the curved rod in your pedal assembly is either bent or broken.
Problem: Have to push pedal down before it can be pulled up.
It's possible that the toilet's spring cartridge is mounted too tightly. To access the two mounting screws, here's what you need to do:
1. Unsnap the plastic shroud on the toilet's base. It's hinged on the right side and snaps together on the left, by the pedal. Shove a screwdriver in there and pry it open--it's pretty sturdy, so you're not likely to break it. (Even if you did, it would be no big deal, since you can reassemble it without snapping that side together and it'll still look OK.)
2. With the shroud out of the way, you can get a Phillips screwdriver in and remove the two screws on the inside of the plastic pedal. They're a bit recessed, but easy to see. A stubby screwdriver works best.
3. Once the screws are out, you can remove the plastic cover plate they hold in place, and then slide off the big plastic pedal cover.
Now, looking from the left, you should be able to see the business end of the water valve assembly. Try loosening the two screws that hold it in place a quarter turn and see whether that solves the problem. If not, back them off another quarter turn and try again.
Also, it doesn't hurt to shoot a little silicone spray at the base of the mushroom-shaped valve actuator--the place where its shaft slides into the valve assembly.
Contributors: Larry Wade, Bill Atkins, Roger Nickey, WxToad, Bob Moore, Ric, Jim C., Art, Andy Baird
Revised: 11 May 2014
Re-install Toilet over New Flooring
Problem: You have installed new flooring in your LD and due to the new height of the floor, the toilet does not seat on the flange fitting.
Solution: Remount the toilet in the original position by doing the following:
- Remove the toilet trim piece.
- Place the toilet in position, directly in line with the flange.
- Mark the perimeter of the toilet base with a Sharpie and then remove the toilet.
- Accurately cut and remove the new sub-flooring from the inside of the marked circle, exposing the old floor. Use a chisel, router, Dremel, Zip-tool, whatever works for you to make the cut, just do not over cut the hole or it will be visible. Make sure not to cut too deep and damage the original floor.
- Remount the toilet in the original position.
- Cut the bottom off of the toilet trim piece, to make up for the height change, so it covers the edge of the cut floor.
Contributor: Larry Wade
Solution: Remount the toilet in the original position by doing the following:
- Remove the toilet trim piece.
- Place the toilet in position, directly in line with the flange.
- Mark the perimeter of the toilet base with a Sharpie and then remove the toilet.
- Accurately cut and remove the new sub-flooring from the inside of the marked circle, exposing the old floor. Use a chisel, router, Dremel, Zip-tool, whatever works for you to make the cut, just do not over cut the hole or it will be visible. Make sure not to cut too deep and damage the original floor.
- Remount the toilet in the original position.
- Cut the bottom off of the toilet trim piece, to make up for the height change, so it covers the edge of the cut floor.
Contributor: Larry Wade
Monday, August 24, 2009
Toilet Bowl Seal Replacement
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:30:53 -0000
Since they would no longer hold water, I've just replaced our toilet bowl seals and thought I should post some of the procedure.
"Merlot" is a Rear Bath model which we picked up from the factory in October of 2002. We spend four or five months each year on the road. Consequently the bowl seals and surrounding parts have received seven years of 'regular appreciation'. Before leaving on our odysseys the ball valve would be waxed with Pledge, the seal edges lubricated with Petroleum Jelly, and we always maintain a frequent cleaning schedule. Nevertheless, since a good deal of our travels were in areas with hard water, the inevitable finally occurred.
I began the project by using Art Bergman's wonderful archives to collect and print pertinent data that had been posted over the years. ( upkeep donations are appreciated ) Another area of information is the very valued efforts of Terry Tanner at http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Techsnoz/ .
With these and the Sealand Owners Manual I knew that I was soon going to be having a face-to-face with that porcelain bowl - and areas beyond, so I sanitized the previously-rinsed-out black tank with water and about a 1/4 gallon of bleach. I brought this sterilizing solution up to the level of the bottom of the bowl for a brief time before emptying the tank again. Ordinarily Bleach is not recommended for the black tank since it destroys the beneficial bacteria and may damage the emptying tank seal. Given the circumstances of what I was about to do though, I ignored this caution. (We will add the good enzymes to the tank at the beginning of the next trip.)
I then made sure the water pump was turned off. ( Terry T. emptied his fresh water tank to be doubly sure ) The toilet bowl seal replacement 'should' begin with knowing which Sealant model had been installed so that the correct replacement parts could be ordered and be on hand for the job. Of course, one could always guess which model Lazy Daze had used from the drawings found in the Sealant Manual, but the manual also stated there was a sticker on the bowl which gave this information . . except someone with a sense of humor had placed it at the upper rear of the toilet bowl. Maybe it's just me, but I found twisting myself virtually upside down and reading it backwards from a mirror a tad awkward. In my best "Tool Time Tim" impression I removed the bowl to get at the sticker! This led to the discovery that I could have simply pulled it off and read it. (The sticker now resides in the Sealand Manual.) Obviously I didn't, but I would strongly recommend ordering the replacement parts ahead of time because each comes with a better set of directions and photos than can be found in the owners manual.
I proceeded by removing the toilet seat, the plastic skirt that surrounds the toilet base, and a similar plastic housing encasing the flushing foot arm. With these out of the way there is access to the next step which is to disconnect the spray and water input hoses. Have a rag available as there may be some minor water still lurking about.
The black base and bowl are held together by a stainless steel ring band that encircles two plastic clamps that squeeze together and bind the bowl to the base. This is a very simple concept, except the screw fastener on the ring clamp is located at the rear of the bowl. The previously mentioned mirror comes in handy in placing a screw driver or 5/16th wrench to the screw mechanism for loosening said clamp. This awkward location turns out to be the only correct position that will provide even clamping pressure for the two clamps. With the ring band amply loosened the plastic clamps are removed, but the stainless steel ring band remains.
The heavy, and potentially slippery, bowl is now free to be lifted off. This fully exposes the black plastic pedestal and the screwed-to-the-floor base. There is now better access to the base bolts, which hold these two together. (The black base need be removed only if the system is leaking at the base. If the problem is a failure of the bowl to hold water, the base should not need to be removed. Editor) I unscrewed the nuts and washers and left the caulked bolts in place. The pedestal base can now be lifted off which exposes the "Floor Flange Seal" which probably will need replacing.
I took the base assembly outside for better viewing and was dismayed by the Calcium build up inside. It had such a heavy coating that I filled a suitable container with water and a gallon of vinegar to soak overnight. (I had two different shaped five gallon buckets, but only one was wide enough to allowed the full immersion of the pedestal.)
What a difference the vinegar bath made! When they were rinsed it was much easier to see how the ball valve, seals, and spring cartridge were to be removed (and replaced). Here is where the Sealand directions, that come with the new parts are very instructive, so I'll leave you to read that part.
The re-assembly of everything was merely a reversal of the removal. All the replaced new parts were the same as I had removed - with the exception that the rotor shaft was made of brass and had two "O Rings" where as the original was plastic. You'll need to buy a tube of Silicone Grease to lube those "O Rings" as Sealand for some reason - although requiring it - doesn't send any with the new parts. The other slight difference was in the "Floor Flange Seal" which was a somewhat different shape.
For ordering parts I had phoned Sealand at (800) 321-9886 and they automatically transferred the call to my closest regional distributer. They were very knowledgeable and sent everything Priority Mail, which I received in two days. My only possible criticism is in the cost of these parts, but then how can you put a price on years of "regular appreciation" . . . after all, is it not . . . The Throne?
The following parts were for Sealand Model 510+
--1 385316140 - Bowl Seal Kit $33.33
--1 385318162 - Ball/Shaft/Cartridge Kit $39.78
--1 600341549 - Foam Floor Flange Seal $12.26
--Shipping 6.00 Tax 7.00
Sorry, no photos, but I hope this may help someone down the road.
Contributor: Bill Atkins
Return to FAQ Index
Since they would no longer hold water, I've just replaced our toilet bowl seals and thought I should post some of the procedure.
"Merlot" is a Rear Bath model which we picked up from the factory in October of 2002. We spend four or five months each year on the road. Consequently the bowl seals and surrounding parts have received seven years of 'regular appreciation'. Before leaving on our odysseys the ball valve would be waxed with Pledge, the seal edges lubricated with Petroleum Jelly, and we always maintain a frequent cleaning schedule. Nevertheless, since a good deal of our travels were in areas with hard water, the inevitable finally occurred.
I began the project by using Art Bergman's wonderful archives to collect and print pertinent data that had been posted over the years. ( upkeep donations are appreciated ) Another area of information is the very valued efforts of Terry Tanner at http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Techsnoz/ .
With these and the Sealand Owners Manual I knew that I was soon going to be having a face-to-face with that porcelain bowl - and areas beyond, so I sanitized the previously-rinsed-out black tank with water and about a 1/4 gallon of bleach. I brought this sterilizing solution up to the level of the bottom of the bowl for a brief time before emptying the tank again. Ordinarily Bleach is not recommended for the black tank since it destroys the beneficial bacteria and may damage the emptying tank seal. Given the circumstances of what I was about to do though, I ignored this caution. (We will add the good enzymes to the tank at the beginning of the next trip.)
I then made sure the water pump was turned off. ( Terry T. emptied his fresh water tank to be doubly sure ) The toilet bowl seal replacement 'should' begin with knowing which Sealant model had been installed so that the correct replacement parts could be ordered and be on hand for the job. Of course, one could always guess which model Lazy Daze had used from the drawings found in the Sealant Manual, but the manual also stated there was a sticker on the bowl which gave this information . . except someone with a sense of humor had placed it at the upper rear of the toilet bowl. Maybe it's just me, but I found twisting myself virtually upside down and reading it backwards from a mirror a tad awkward. In my best "Tool Time Tim" impression I removed the bowl to get at the sticker! This led to the discovery that I could have simply pulled it off and read it. (The sticker now resides in the Sealand Manual.) Obviously I didn't, but I would strongly recommend ordering the replacement parts ahead of time because each comes with a better set of directions and photos than can be found in the owners manual.
I proceeded by removing the toilet seat, the plastic skirt that surrounds the toilet base, and a similar plastic housing encasing the flushing foot arm. With these out of the way there is access to the next step which is to disconnect the spray and water input hoses. Have a rag available as there may be some minor water still lurking about.
The black base and bowl are held together by a stainless steel ring band that encircles two plastic clamps that squeeze together and bind the bowl to the base. This is a very simple concept, except the screw fastener on the ring clamp is located at the rear of the bowl. The previously mentioned mirror comes in handy in placing a screw driver or 5/16th wrench to the screw mechanism for loosening said clamp. This awkward location turns out to be the only correct position that will provide even clamping pressure for the two clamps. With the ring band amply loosened the plastic clamps are removed, but the stainless steel ring band remains.
The heavy, and potentially slippery, bowl is now free to be lifted off. This fully exposes the black plastic pedestal and the screwed-to-the-floor base. There is now better access to the base bolts, which hold these two together. (The black base need be removed only if the system is leaking at the base. If the problem is a failure of the bowl to hold water, the base should not need to be removed. Editor) I unscrewed the nuts and washers and left the caulked bolts in place. The pedestal base can now be lifted off which exposes the "Floor Flange Seal" which probably will need replacing.
I took the base assembly outside for better viewing and was dismayed by the Calcium build up inside. It had such a heavy coating that I filled a suitable container with water and a gallon of vinegar to soak overnight. (I had two different shaped five gallon buckets, but only one was wide enough to allowed the full immersion of the pedestal.)
What a difference the vinegar bath made! When they were rinsed it was much easier to see how the ball valve, seals, and spring cartridge were to be removed (and replaced). Here is where the Sealand directions, that come with the new parts are very instructive, so I'll leave you to read that part.
The re-assembly of everything was merely a reversal of the removal. All the replaced new parts were the same as I had removed - with the exception that the rotor shaft was made of brass and had two "O Rings" where as the original was plastic. You'll need to buy a tube of Silicone Grease to lube those "O Rings" as Sealand for some reason - although requiring it - doesn't send any with the new parts. The other slight difference was in the "Floor Flange Seal" which was a somewhat different shape.
For ordering parts I had phoned Sealand at (800) 321-9886 and they automatically transferred the call to my closest regional distributer. They were very knowledgeable and sent everything Priority Mail, which I received in two days. My only possible criticism is in the cost of these parts, but then how can you put a price on years of "regular appreciation" . . . after all, is it not . . . The Throne?
The following parts were for Sealand Model 510+
--1 385316140 - Bowl Seal Kit $33.33
--1 385318162 - Ball/Shaft/Cartridge Kit $39.78
--1 600341549 - Foam Floor Flange Seal $12.26
--Shipping 6.00 Tax 7.00
Sorry, no photos, but I hope this may help someone down the road.
Contributor: Bill Atkins
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